B -10 



recommendation, includes rational use in the sense that harvesting 

 would not be prohibited. But the regime would exclude catch 

 allocation and other economic regulations of harvesting. 



Now I think one of the principle concerns that most of 

 the organizations at the Center, that the Center works with 

 in many environmental areas, and specifically Antarctica, is 

 this concept of economic regulation and what is not included, 

 or what may be excluded from this regime we are trying to 

 set up. 



Because it seems to us that you cannot have a sound liv- 

 ing resources regime without it being based on management and 

 some conservation principles — and we don't really see how 

 you can have sound conservation and management principles 

 embodied in a regime if you are going to exclude all catch-all 

 cases -- and what I am afraid might be included in this phrase 

 "other economic regulation of harvesting." 



And specifically we would like to know, I guess, whether 

 in the view of the State Department the term "economic regu- 

 lation" includes things like catch limits -- gear restrictions 

 — effort restrictions — closed seasons — closed areas and 

 things like that. Because if that phrase does include those 

 things, and we are excluding them from the regime, it is difficult 

 (in the opinion of many environmental groups anyway) to have 

 an effective management regime. 



MR. SCULLY: Could I have just one point on that? I think 

 that it is not our understanding that those terms would exclude 

 any of the conservation measures that would or could be ap- 

 plied to regulate harvesting. 



MR. JAMES BARNES: What about catch allocations which are 

 specifically delineated? 



MR. SCULLY: The reason for the inclusion of catch alloca- 

 tions was that it was the understanding of those participating 

 that they would not devise, at least at this stage of the 

 game -- national quotas. 



There would be total allowable catches. 



There could be quotas but not in the regime itself. 



There would not be a specific, as I understand it, di- 

 vision between country x, country y and country z -- 



MR. JAMES BARNES: But you are anticipating that the re- 



