24 



removed all the molecular H^O. 



CHARGAFF: It may be that you h^ve irradiated this 12 percent mois- 

 ture. 



POLLARD: It is just like having air inside a belljar. I can never pump 

 all the air out of the belljar, but, nevertheless, I cannot hear the sound in it. 



BARRON: Then you have not removed the indirect effect. 



POLLARD: I may not have removed the indirect effect because I think 

 there is a certain amount of religion connected with the indirect effect. I have 

 removed the nnedium through which diffusion can occur. There is no hydrody- 

 namicist in the room who will disagree with me that the indirect effect is some- 

 thing that can diffuse as through a liquid. I am afraid I could not stand up as an 

 objective scientist, if I did not recognize that fact. There is no medium through 

 which diffusion effects can occur. 



PLATZMAN: Easily. 



POLLARD: Well, could occur easily, if you like. That is right. Of 

 course, diffusion of lead into gold can be observed. It must not be taken as an 

 arbitrary statement. But I am not trying in these experiments to study nucleic 

 acid for its own sake. I very deeply regret the unfortunate fact that this trans- 

 forming principle is undoubtedly degraded. I rejoice over the fact that it still 

 works when I put it back in solution. I find that when they have their other coats 

 on, some of the people who are the most critical of my experiments do much 

 worse things to nucleic acid than I even think of doing, yet continue to study the 

 effects there. I have tried to isolate only one side of action radiation. I want to 

 say, furthermore, that I do not consider this to be the only side. 



I liken myself as a physicist to a person studying electrical discharge. 

 I am looking for one aspect. I am not saying I am explaining all the phenomena 

 of a neon sign. If I can only find out, for example, what the simple phenomenon 

 of ionization by collision is like, I will be content. I have a finite life. 



CHARGAFF: My definition of a biochemist is a chemistry major who 

 did not get into medical school, and he usually is quite sensitive about many oth- 

 er things. For instance, when I read Schroedinger's book, "What Is Life", I 

 noticed with amazement that he had left out water. Since that time, I have been 

 sensitive to H2O, and that is the only reason for my question. 



PLATZMAN: I have lost the threads of the debate now. Do you dis- 

 agree with what Pollard said? 



CHARGAFF: I don't know. I have no license to disagree. But I doubt 

 very much that you can still call it a completely anhydrous nucleic acid or protein 

 molecule. 



PLATZMAN: We don't care what the names are. Are any of his con- 

 clusions wrong? 



CHARGAFF: I would at least conclude that there is probably still 

 plenty of water left in these molecules. 



PLATZMAN: But if the water is left after the treatment, which he sug- 

 gested, then it is different from the water that he has removed. As he points out. 



