188 



Dr. O'DOWD. Whereas we integrate instruction and the training 

 of new scientists into our ongoing science estabhshment, the Rus- 

 sians have developed a different system, separating almost com- 

 pletely their instructional program from their scientific investiga- 

 tions. The numbers of people involved in Russian science are very 

 large, and now the Russian establishment is recognizing that it 

 probably is far larger than it needs to be, in the sense that there 

 are more scientists, more technicians and more staff than most 

 comparable Western science entities use to carry out their busi- 

 ness — probably by at least twice — so that you get very large num- 

 bers of people doing the kind of scientific activity that we do on a 

 much reduced diet. One advantage that we find in working with 

 Russians is that they do have the capability of collecting extensive 

 data, because they have the hands and heads to put to work on 

 data collection in a way that we simply don't have available to us. 

 My observation is that Russian science is very uneven. There are 

 points of brilliance 



Senator Murkowski. You make a good politician. That's a good 

 answer. 



Dr. O'DoWD. There are points of brilliance and there are points 

 of great weakness. I recall once being introduced to a person and 

 later the scientist with whom I was traveling said, "you don't need 

 to pay much attention to him, he is the son of academician so Eind 

 so." In working with Russian scientists, it's possible very quickly to 

 identify good laboratories for they will make the discriminations for 

 you. They do not want to be embarrassed in working with Western 

 scientists and they are quite willing to tell you frankly where to 

 turn and where not to turn. The University of Alaska has agree- 

 ments with institutes scattered throughout the Far East, and prob- 

 ably knows more about Russia Far East science than any other in- 

 stitution in the United States or elsewhere in the Western world. 

 Scientists from this part of the nation are working with people 

 throughout Siberia and the Far East, where we probably know less 

 about the contamination problems than we do in the northern part 

 of Western Russia, were more work has been done and where the 

 Norwegians in particular have been gathering data very inten- 

 sively. So, I think there is a strong science establishment but it's 

 not large, and one has to be very selective, I know the State De- 

 partment is sending a delegation to Siberia and the Far East late 

 this fall to try to identify those scientists with whom we might 

 work most fruitfully. 



Senator MURKOWSKI. Let me ask you another question relative 

 to logistics. You recently, with your commission, journeyed to one 

 of the more interesting places that occasionally we in politics get 

 involved in, namely Wrangel. And having lived on the Island of 

 Wrangell, Alaska, spelled with two L's, I am quite familiar with 

 many of the constituent letters that come in as to an explanation 

 of our alleged "giveaway" of the other Wrangel Island spelled with 

 one L. I understand and your group went up there in a helicopter, 

 a Russian helicopter, which itself is an adventure — an hour, hour 

 and a half over open water, with no survival gear. And the ques- 

 tion is logistics. How much of their logistic capability can be uti- 

 lized in a monitoring scenario? And I wonder if you could elaborate 



