Discussion 183 



Wclford: The task was in no way visually exacting. The numbers were 

 the most difficult part of the display to see but they were about an inch 

 high and viewed at not more than four feet, so they were really quite 

 large. 



Tunbridge: But it is an alignment factor and a question of focussing; 

 the further the distance the greater the difficulty in accommodating. 

 It is surprising what a difference a small distance would make to an older 

 person. 



Welford: Kay tried the alignment task without the numbers and this, 

 in fact, yielded very little change with age. We can say that given the 

 task of alignment only or going through the motions with the numbers 

 only, you get very small change with age ; given the two things combined 

 you get a very large one. 



Lorge: It is a double problem. Not only is it a visual task, but also 

 it is the process of utilizing the informations, i.e. the transfers are 

 important. Here one may make a point: when we train young people to 

 learn codes, and we train them on meaningful material in which the 

 expectations are already built into the individual, the learning is quite 

 different from when they have to learn cryptic codes where no expecta- 

 tions are set up or used. What may happen is that the expectations 

 already established by previous learning in the adult are so predominant 

 that he expects anyone to be sensible enough to have the light related to 

 the stimulus, that these expectations are overlearned, and thus he may 

 have great difficulty in unlearning a learning. One of the findings in 

 our work in learning is that it is much harder to break previously acquired 

 habits than to learn rather new ones. For instance, when we tried to 

 teach Russian, we used a group ranging from 20 to 70 years. If we or- 

 ganize the instruction so that all have success on every learning occasion, 

 there is little or no difference in the amount of Russian acquired over 

 time, i.e. over a 2- or 3-month period. The reason is that they have no 

 prior expectations with a new language, a new symbol, a new anything. 

 But when we try to teach Pitman shorthand, the adults do have 

 tremendous difficulty because of their earlier over-learning of phonetic 

 habits ; they cannot break them, e.g. they try to write a ph symbol instead 

 of an/ symbol. 



Olbrich: I have one fundamental criticism of your sampling of popula- 

 tions, namely, have you any health inventory of your subjects, i.e. have 

 you tested the haemoglobins, blood pressure and blood urea, etc. ? You 

 may have a person with a haemoglobin of 70 or even 50, living quite 

 happily, functioning perfectly, looking quite intelligent, and when it 

 comes to the test he will give a result different from that given by a 

 subject with a haemoglobin of 100. This applies to factory workers and 

 also applies to an elderly population, even to young schoolchildren 

 and, therefore, it is a big question: what factors play an environmental 

 role? There is the influence of haemoglobin or, in the older group, of a 

 high blood urea. You may have a university professor who has a quite 

 intelligent response and his blood urea is up to 120, so these tests are 

 not valid. 



Lorge: Your criticism is extraordinarily valid. We have had, as 



