HARDWOOD RECORD 



17 



thing about the cost of even the logs, to say 

 nothing of manufacture. I am opposed to the 

 admission of any machinery or supply men to 

 this association, for I don't think they do us a 

 bit of good. 



Mr. Kline : In adopting this constitution we 

 overlooked the meaning of one word. It says 

 "there sholl be two classes of members." It 

 should have read "There may be two classes of 

 members." It would he unwise to create any 

 friction in the consideration of any such thing 

 as association membership. I have been in the 

 veneer business long enough to recollect the time 

 when if a man wanted a veneer machine and was 

 not on the inside he would not know where to 

 find it. 



Mr. Sawyer : I w.'is wondering if these ma- 

 chinery men would do any more harm here with 

 us than on the outside. We might get on their 

 "blind side" if we let them in. Some of them 

 are the most aggressive fellows on earth, and we 

 can't avoid them. If we could show them how 

 foolish their methods are and how they might 

 benefit their business, it would be a good thing. 

 I think we might possibly better ourselves by 

 getting a little closer to them. 



Mr. Kline ; If we establish an associate mem- 

 bership there will be a revenue from it, and we 

 can't run this association without money. I 

 agree with Mr. Sawyer in what he says. 



Mr. Groffman : I wish to say I had a chat 

 with one of the prominent machinery manufac- 

 turers, and I told him we were looking for his 

 scalp. He said whenever he installed a machine 

 he carried with him a list of top notch prices 

 and gave them to his customers with a view to 

 starting them out right. He said he could guar- 

 antee that these prices were as high if not higher 

 than prevailing ones. I asked him if he would 

 guarantee those prices to stick. He laughed and 

 said no. 



History of Veneer Prices. 



Ml'. Kline ; If you care to spare the time to 

 hear this history of the veneer business, as far 

 as prices are concerned, I will go through it and 

 read you some prices. I have here a price list 

 from a very prosperous concern, dated July 1, 

 1884. They quote 1-30 poplar at $3 : tj poplar, 

 $9 ; 3-16, ?10. There was then little or no de- 

 mand for oak. The consequence is that that 

 does not appear in their price list. In 18SS 

 they issued a price list in which they quote 1-3U 

 plain walnut at $5.50 ; 1-30 sliced cut walnut, 

 $6 : 1-30 poplar, ?3 ; 1-24 poplar, $3.50 ; 1-20 

 poplar, $3.75 ; 1-30 plain oak, $5 ; 1-24 oak, 

 ?8.50 ; 1-20 oak, $9.50 ; sliced cut quartered oak 

 1-30, $10, etc. Now I will quote from a list of 

 my own, published in 1890, which I know was 

 adhered to. We furnished 1-30 plain oak at $5 ; 

 1-24 at $8 ; 1-20 at $0 ; sliced cut quartered oak 

 1-30 at $10 ; 1-24, $11.50 ; 1-20, $12.50, etc. In 

 1S92 we quoted on 1-30 plain oak, $5 ; 1-24, $8 : 

 1-20, $9 ; poplar at $3 tor 1-30 : 1-24, $3.50 : 

 1-20, $3.75 ; 1-16, $5. I know logs were costing 

 $20 and we were getting good ones. In 1894 we 

 quoted plain oak rotary cut 1-30, $4.50 ; 1-24, 

 $6 : 1-20, $7.50, and here prices commenced to 

 go down. 



You gentlemen in the North know that down 

 South they have no birch or basswood, so that 

 these items are not mentioned. The first men- 

 tioned concern cut their prices from $3 on 1-30 

 poplar to $2.50 ; on 1-20 from $3.75 to $3.25. 

 This was after the men who organized the com- 

 pany had all gone out of it. The stock hart 

 been purchased by men without experience in 

 the veneer business, and they commenced doing 

 business on the same lines with other irresponsi- 

 ble ones — and prices were reduced instead of 

 advanced. I find it very diflicult today to obtain 

 any of the prices I have named for veneers of 

 any of the kinds mentioned, and we must take 

 into consideration the fact that timber today Is 

 costing us forty to fifty per cent more than it 

 did fifteen years ago. It is costing us twenty 

 per cent more than it did a year ago. And, from 

 my own experience, we are not able to get any 



better prices than we were a year ago. I won't 

 sell veneers at less than cost, nor will I sell 

 Ihem at cost, as far as that is concerned. The 

 result is that when we get around to the end 

 of the year's business we find that we have lived, 

 but have put aside comparatively nothing. We 

 have, however, run the risks of our Investment 

 during the year — danger from fire, bad debts, etc. 



We are here of course for mutual benefit, and 

 I think the fact that we are here indicates that 

 none of us are philanthropists, and the benefit to 

 us is getting better prices for our stuff. This is 

 true of the glued-up stock business also. It will 

 be urged, perliaps, that there is a greater con- 

 suinptliin. 'I'iiis is true, and it is perhaps true 

 that methods of manufacture have been cheap- 

 ened, hut not to the extent that has been indi- 

 cated by declining prices. The inducement ad- 

 vanced to go into the veneer business is because 

 it is a money maker, but I don't see that there 

 is any great profit from that source today. Per- 

 haps concerns are many times urged into it by 

 manufacturers of cutting machines. As has been 

 said, we need the organization of manufactur- 

 ers in special lines, getting together, comparing 

 prices to a certain extent, etc. This was done 

 by the veneer manufacturers at our last meet- 

 ing. I would suggest that the manufacturers of 

 veneers get together for a little conference, so 

 we can have something to say to the general 

 meeting later on. I hope the gentlemen whose 

 lines embody rotary cut, sliced or sawed veneers 

 will come together here tomorrow morning. 



Mr. Sawyer : I would like to ask how many 

 institutions there are who make panel work in 

 the middle west. How many of them have 

 ever shown any interest in the associations! 

 How many have we with us? 



Mr. Kline : We had representatives of about 

 ti'U houses making glued-up stock at the last 

 meeting. There are tnenty-flve or twenty- 

 six altogether. 



Mr. Sawyer : I want to know, and it seems It 

 is necessary to know, how many and where they 

 are, that we want to get with us ; also what 

 their objections are to coming with us. There 

 must be method in everything and there must 

 be method about our raising prices. 



Friendly Relations with Competitors 

 Urged. 



Mr. Defebaugh : The idea in view in forming 

 tills association was to bring about a uatlonal 

 body to get the manufacturers acquainted with 

 each other. I find that men in the same busi- 

 ness and neighborhood have not been friendly. I 

 have been surprised to go to towns where there 

 were half a dozen men engaged in the same busi- 

 ness who didn't know each other nor much about 

 what the other fellow was doing. It has been 

 ■my experience in associations that men must get 

 acquainted, and I agree with Mr. Sawyer that 

 by method you can advance prices. It is clear 

 to me that the reason veneer prices are where 

 they are today is because of lack of education. 

 Every man in this room may know to the exact 

 cent what it costs to cut veneer or to make 

 panels, but he evidently has not been basing his 

 prices on cost. Our idea is to discuss these 

 propositions and then form an organization to 

 take up these matters. The panel men can have 

 their own association if they choose. It seems 

 to me that the subject of cost continued from the 

 last meeting ought to he a subject that every 

 man is Interested in. You may say that you 

 don't want to talk about these things before the 

 other fellow. A pretty wise man in the lumber 

 trade once said to me : "It is very much cheaper 

 to educate your competitor than to have him 

 educate you by making your prices for you." 

 While you may feel that you are not well enough 

 acquainted to talk that way, I may say that I 

 have attended meetings where three or four got 

 together in a corner and found out that they 

 didn't know it all, and that by an exchange of 

 information they had picked up money right off 

 the floor. We have had expressions from several 



people who have been at our meetings and they 

 know where they have absolutely made money by 

 an exchange of views among those present. I 

 hope everyone has come here with the idea in 

 view — that they will talk freely — and exchange 

 views on manufacturing subjects, and I would 

 like to see a good free discussion of all subjects 

 relating to manufacturing, drying, bundling, etc., 

 up to the point of putting a price on the mate- 

 rial and delivering it to customers. 



As a suggestion: Take some particular line 

 of stock and let each man say on a ballot what 

 it costs to produce that stock, etc. The consen- 

 sus of opinion will Influence perhaps a dozen 

 men here to base their prices on a higher cost. 

 I believe you will he benefited by such action 

 and discussion. I believe that we ought to make 

 this meeting informal. Let us talk freely with 

 each other and go into details and have back- 

 bone about these things. We have some high- 

 priced men here and some low-priced men. They 

 have not met before with their competitors. 

 .\fter you exchange views and get better ac- 

 quainted you lose the petty spirit and actually 

 believe in each other. I would believe my com- 

 petitor quicker than I would believe my cus- 

 tomer. I notice that even the Presbyterian mem- 

 bers tell little white lies. There's no way to 

 get a genuine good feeling among manufacturers 

 and get better prices than to exchange Informa- 

 tion on what it costs to do business. 



Discussion on Cost and 'Values. 



Mr. Lord : Speaking of education, there seems 

 to be a great variance in prices on poplar, not 

 only in thickness but In different sizes. Manu- 

 facturers don't know what price to make on cer- 

 tain thicknesses or on certain sizes. I would 

 like to make a suggestion. Suppose the chair 

 appoint a committee for each wood, to get up a 

 basis of prices according to sizes and thicknesses 

 of each size, and let all the men .Interested dis- 

 cuss it. There are so many who make prices 

 unlntelllgently. If they had some gauge that 

 was uniform and gotten up by several men, It 

 would be much more intelligent and much nearer 

 a standard. 



Mr. Kline : I don't believe we can make prices. 

 I believe the only thing we can do Is to urge the 

 men on the bottom to put their base prices 

 higher, and then let them be guided by some 

 such rule as this when it comes to size. I do 

 not believe we can as an association establish 

 prices. How about that, Mr. Gibson? 



Mr. Gibson : The value of association work Is 

 an educational one entirely. If you will educate 

 the low-priced man to actually knowing cost he 

 Is ashamed to sell at less than cost prices. This 

 history Is followed out In lumber and in box 

 organizations. Just as fast as you get people 

 who are not price getters Into your association 

 you are going to help them and help yourselves. 



Mr. Lord : I meant comparative prices only 

 In my suggestion. I appreciate the point of as- 

 sociations not making prices, but why can they 

 not make a base as to thickness as well as to 

 size? 



Mr. Underwood : It seems to me that any man 

 who quotes prices without seeing specifications, 

 unless he gets a good big price, don't know his 

 business. The width across the grain in every 

 Instance governs the cost of that stock. 



Mr. Kline : It is my rule in quoting prices to 

 know first what sizes are wanted and what pro- 

 portion of each size. The same is true of glued- 

 up stock. 



Mr. Sawyer : Is there any system as to reck- 

 rnlng cost? Is there any way of finding out 

 liow cost Is reckoned as a rule? Perhaps Items 

 are left out in many cases in computing cost. 

 Many may think they are realizing profit when 

 they are not. Would It not be a good idea to 

 discuss how various ones arrive at what they 

 call cost? 



Mr. Munyon : I arrived at the conclusion a 

 good many years ago that It was impossible to 

 quote a price intelligently without knowing what 



