20 



HARDWOOD RECORD 



J Illy 



liaviuf; tlii' hiirdwood and suftwucid.-. me' tiii^ tijiTf ther. It .seems to me 

 the meetiu^' might to be si pnraied so iis to have a separate hardwood 

 meeting and a separate sottwood iiieetiuK. I cannot see any rehitiou at all 

 between the interest of the consumer and the dealer any more than there 

 would be in live stock to have the same grading for mules as they have 

 for niilcli cows, simply because thtv are live stock. 



Mr. A. C. guixley (Northern Wholesale Hardwood Lumber Association. 

 Chicago. 111.) : Mr" Chairman. I represent the Northern Wholesale Hard- 

 wood Lumber Association. 1 woulil like to have an opportunity of saying 

 before this motion is put that I am heartily in favor of the motion as it 

 stands. 



The Chairman : The chair is of opinion that any representative of any 

 association of lumber producers, distributers or consumers is eligible to 

 participate in this conference. Is that your question, as to whether you 

 are eligible to voteV Does that answer .vour question? 



Mr. Quixley : A doubt has been expressed as to who are eligible to 

 vote. If this motion is in order, I would like to have an opportunity to 

 vote on it. and would like to have the chair put the motion. 



Chair Rules that Motion Is in Order 



The Chairman : If the chair were in doubt about this motion being in 

 order, it would submit that question to the conference to decide. The 

 chair will not take the responsibility after having stated that the matters 

 before this assembly are open to free and full discussion, of declaring that 

 any motion made by a delegate of an association of producers, distributors 

 or consumers of lumber is out of order, if it touches the merits of any part 

 of the subject matter before this conference. The chair has attempted 

 to describe what, in its understanding, is the subject matter which is 

 before this conference. According to his understanding, this motion has 

 been made and seconded by representatives of associations of either lum- 

 ber producers, distributors' or consumers. Since it obviously bears upon 

 a matter which is distinctly before this assembly, his understanding would 

 be that the motion is in order. It there is objection to that holding that 

 the motion shall be considered in order, a motion to test the ruling may be 

 put separately, if it is desired to test the present understanding of the 

 chair. , , ,. 



Mr. Hall : Mr. Chairman, it I understand the question of excluding 

 hardwood lumber from consideration at this conference, it 1 understand the 

 gentleman who made the motion, the motion is based on the conclusion 

 that the rules already adopted by the hardwood association are entirely 

 satisfactory to everyone: then, why not adopt the rules already made b.v 

 this association if that is the point, but. as I understand the purpose of 

 this conference, it is to deal with the question of lumber standardization 

 and that covers the entire subject of wood products practically. As a rep- 

 resentative of the public, I. for one, am very anxious to see that there is 

 put in one book of standards all of the standards pertaining to wood 

 products, so that the public may be in a iiosition to know what the correct 

 gradings are and where to lind them. The fact that the manufacturers 

 have some grading rules which they keep to themselves does not help the 

 public, and the fact that there may be several hundred grading books 

 distributed from time to time to architects, engineers and the general 

 public does not mean that that information is available to the public, 

 because it is so difficult for the average representative of the public to be 

 familiar with all of these different associations. It seems to me that the 

 great demand at this time is for one simple statement, to which we can 

 refer and have the last word. 



I do not think that any of us here favor at all the changing of any 

 grades already adopted, provided they are right, and provided they are 

 understood. The main purpose is to get this material all together under 

 one cover, and tor that reason I oliject to eliminating hardwood or any 

 other wood product from consideraticm. if we are going to get anywhere 

 in this standardization proposition. What we are after Is to adopt stand- 

 ards and get them together. 



I want to emphasize again that the American Institute of Architects, 

 which 1 represent, and the several architects' local societies are opposed 

 to meeting, time after time, year after year, in conferences, and then after 

 the conferences are over and havi' had their meetings, the material is 

 denied to the public, after conclusions have been reached in the confer- 



What we want is to consider these matters as faithfully and carefully 

 as we can. and when conclusions are reached to make them public prop- 

 erty, put them in such form that they are public property. 



McCreight Again Urges Hardwood Exclusion 



Mr. McCreight: The National Hardwood Association publishes a book 

 of rules, and it is available to anybody that wants it. Mr. Hall has sat 

 in these conferences and I have been here several years, and we have 

 talked standards and sizes since lOlS. 1 have sat in this room every 

 year under the auspices of the National Lumber Manufacturers' Associa- 

 tion, and the association has been doing good work and making excellent 

 progress. We have worked the best we could all the time. I favor stand- 

 ardizing ordinaiT sizes of lumber. We have never talked about standardiz- 

 ing sizes of hardwoods. Hardwood is consumed by an entirely different 

 class of users, and the average retailer, as Mr. Dickason has said, is not 

 interested in hardwood. 



I represent the National Wholesalers, and I am backed by a resolution 

 adopted bv the trustees, and I think we have a right to vote on this 

 motion. If you are not in favor of the motion that has l)een made, you 

 can vote against it. 



Murray Defends Inclusion of Hardwoods 



Mr. W. T. Murray (Southern Pine Association. Rochelle, La.) : Mr. 

 Chairman. I am glad to hear Mr. Ilall say what he has said, because as a 

 member of the first standardization conference that Secretary Hoover 

 called at Washington. I remember that this same question came up : you 

 were present and will recall that there was a division among the hardwood 

 men as to whether or not hardwood should be considered. Mr. Durgin 

 iW. A. Durgin. chief of Division of Standardization and Simplification, 

 U. S. Department of Commerce) expressed the secretary's views as desir- 

 ing that hardwoods be considered along with softwoods, and that confer- 

 ence followed that lead and did consider hardwoods along with the soft- 

 woods, wherever it was possible. The National Hardwood Lumber .Asso- 

 ciation did not accept representation on the various committees, but the 

 American Hardwood Association did : al.so some of the other hardwood 

 associations were represented. 



I notice that this report that we are discussing now brought in b.v the 

 men who spent a week or ten days at Madison, going into these questions, 

 that there were two or more members of the hardsvood industry on that 

 committee that brought in this report. I don't see how we can disregard 

 the hardwoods in connection with the softwoods or disregard the repre- 

 sentation of that portion of the liarilwood industry, who seemed to feel 

 that there is a need for revision of grades and standards in hardwoods. I 

 don't think we ought to try to control anybody in this conference. I 

 think the fullest expression ought to be allowed everylwdy that is present. 



.Mr. Viumg says he is a southern [jiue manufacturer and not a memb4*r 

 of the Southern Pine Association, or any other association, but he has a 

 right here, as a manufacturer or producer. I should say that he should 

 have as much force here as I or any other man here, but I don't think 

 that we ought to throttle this thing or railroad it through. There is :i 

 division in the hardwood ranks as to practices in the hardwood industr.\ . 

 T think the National Lumber JIanufacturers' Association — and in inviting 

 rei»ri'scntation from the Hardwood association, as was dcpiie in the first 

 instance, and also in this instance, are simply following the lines sug- 

 gested by Secretary Hoover. I think we ought to be a little careful in 

 excluding hardwoods from this conference. 



The (Chairman : It has been suggested that the hardwood report in 

 question, which is a part of this report that has been submitted to you, be 

 read. That need not be done, however, at this moment. 



Mr. Young : I w-ant to correct the gentleman who made the statement 

 that I said I was not a member of any association. I said I was not speak- 

 ing as a member of an.v association, but was speaking as a manufacturer 

 of hardwood and southern pine. 



General Public Does Use Hardwoods 



Mr. Hall : The statement has been made, as I understand — I may In- 

 dense — that hardwood lumber is not used by the general public. I would 

 like to know just what the meaning of that statement is. I don't recall 

 any product that hardwood lumber is not used in nowadays. It certainly is 

 used in the furniture of every man's house, and is used in making of the 

 casket that is the last article that a man needs. I can't understand the 

 meaning of that statement. 



Mr. Dickason : We do use some small amount of harchvood. but it is 

 very negligible. I can't see the use of grading rules on lumber that goes 

 into a chair or material that goes into other things which are covered with 

 paint and no one can tell about the grading of it. You say this is in the 

 interest of economy and practical business. If so, let us save our time and 

 save the time of the hardwood people. I don't believe it is practicable for 

 the dealers or the men representing the two w<iods to meet together. 



Saunders Asks, "Why Butt In?" 



Mr. Saunders : Mr. C'hairman, as a supporter of this motion, I wish to 

 say that that is just the keynote, and to get anywhere with this association 

 this bod.y of men today certainly cannot clean the house of the hardwood 

 men. If we have any ditTerenc'es within our ranks, we will take care of 

 them ourselves. Later on. if it becomes necessar.v for the hardwood 

 interests to get together and fall into step, so to speak, you can depend 

 on the hardwood interests iloing ^vhat is right. If we can be shown 

 that we are not treating the public right, there is no question but what 

 we w-ill meet you : but I don't believe that this body of men can get any- 

 where today in handling softwood and hardwood. You have got to put us 

 in two classes, because we have nothing in common. I'ou are in the 

 building trade. We manufacturers supply the mannfacturing trades. 

 There is none of our luml)er scarcely that you men handle except in its 

 refined product which you bu.y from some factory that we sell to. Now, ^ 

 let us fix our rules and regulations in handling tliat lumber with the men 

 that use our lumber. Why do you want to butt in'.' 



Mr. .\dolph Pfund (secretary National Retail Lumber Dealers' Associa- 

 tion. Chicago. 111.) : Mr. Chairman. I do not think that it should be 

 iiiiilerstood as coming from the retailers that they are insisting on either 

 including or excluding hardwoods. .As Mr. Dickson has stated, the main 

 interest of the retailer is in the softwoods. lie is interested to some 

 extent in the harilwoods. If those who are competent to judge whether 

 hardwoods and softwoods can be liandle<l together in this proposition, state 

 that they can be or they cannot be. I think that in either case their 

 decision will be satisfactory to the retailers. I don't think the retailers 

 are competent to vote on a question of this kind. They are not sufficientl.v 

 engaged in the hardwood business and are not well enough posted to decide 

 such a question. If those who are competent to determine this question 

 will go to Mr. Hoover, or come to the general assembly and say that the.v 

 have got to be handled separately, in either event I think the retailers 

 will be in agreement, but if they are going to be handled separately, I 

 think that the retailers will be interested and will want to be heard. 'They 

 want to be heard on tioth woods, but as to whether they should be handled 

 together. I don't think the retailer is competent to decide. 



Mr. Young: Mr. Chairman. I do not want to occuny too niuch time in 

 this meeting, but from one statement made by Mr. Ilall. I infer he is of 

 tlie impression and perhaps some other gentlemen have the impression, that 

 the Forest Products Laboratory at Madison. Wis., have agreed to hear 

 the hardwood representatives who appeared at Madison in connection with 

 these matters just discussed. 1 understand that Mr. Winslow is here, and 

 Mr. Winslow told the gentlemen representing the hardwood indnstr.v that 

 tbi-y are not now prepared to take uii the matter of liardwoods at Madison. 



Putman Favors Sticking to Hoover's Idea 

 Mr. L. R. Putman (.American Wholesale Lumber .Association) : Mr, 

 Chairman, inasmuch as everybody else is qualifying before the vote is 

 taken, while I am not sneaking for the -American Hardwood Lumber .Asso- 

 ciation. I went to Washington, sat in every conference except one or two. 

 but T sat in the others and particinated in them and absorbed all the 

 information I could. I grew uii in a hardwood section : I have been in the 

 lumber business all of my life and have tried to represent all of those 

 engaged in the lumber industry. The question came tin as to who was 

 here. We worked together for a while and got iiii what was called the 

 .American Lumber Congress to handle such matters as this, but that was 

 slde-stepiied and another tack was taken, initiated In- Secretary IIoo%-er. 

 and we followed yon to Washington. 1 have been in the lumber industry 

 all of my life, but I did rot know there was so much feeling in the hard- 

 wood business. It got almost to the point of their using six shooters. 

 Now. we are all lumbermen : we have our money in the livnber business : 

 ici US not fool ourselves. This is an associifion proposition as T nnder- 

 -i:nid it. We are hce at the instance of Secret'irv Hoover. This is a 

 "..over meeting, as T understand it. We are following through with 

 IbM.ver. I heard Mr. Hoover and Mr. Durgin and others say they abso- 

 lutelv could rot do anvthing for ns until we all got together, and they 

 could not see ^-hv hardwood '^nd soft\vood represent-'tives cannot con- 

 sider these broad problems totether. We. as wholesale dealers, don't want 

 to try to he dictatorial. We boy your woods and that is all there is to it. 

 Mr. Hinckley, who represeiifs tbls Association, and T. bnye discussed 

 Cii- aed he savs if we are to follow through with Mr. Hoover, it we 

 :m(' ro be consistent and follow through this meeting, which you say was 

 til liavi' been pretty much under the auspices of Mr. Hoover, we will have 

 ti' vote to get all woods together. 



Mr. Dickason says vou could I'ot s'l-'ide cows with mules. ^ on coiibl 

 rot grade cypress along witli nine, hut cypress is going along with the 

 general herd. There is very little peck in pine and T understand not any 

 ill '-edwood. Tf we are going to follow along wilh Mr. Hoover, not- 

 witlistanding the feud and faniilv row- that there seems to be here. It 

 - . Ill* to me that we ought to follow Hoover on the diverse questions of 



