22 



HARDWOOD RECORD 



July 23. 1922 



■whether this should be put altogether in one book, and let us vote on that. 

 (Applause.) 



The Chairman : May I ask. in behalf of the chair, that you permit 

 Mr. Holtman to read the suggestions with respect to hardwoods that is 

 being considered — it has been suggested that that is not clear to some 

 of those who have net examined the document closely. Then the chair 

 will recognize you, Mr. Sherrill, if you please. 



Mr. C. H. Sherrill: (Hardwood Mfrs. Institute. New Orleans, La.) 

 Mr. Chairman, I will speak later, if it will be more satisfactory. 



Mr. Holtman : One page of this report relates to hardwoods. It 

 reads as follows : 



(Mr. Holtman then read the hardwood recommendations which have 

 previously been quoted in this article. — Editor.) 



The Chairman : Mr. Sherrill, we will hear you now. 



Sherrill Pleads in Public's Behalf 

 Mr. Sherrill : Mr. Chairman. I am indeed grateful that before I rose 

 to speak Mr. Holtman read that report of the Madison conference. Unfor- 

 tunately, I believe that the association that 1 represent, the Hardwood 

 Manufa'cturers' Institute, was practically the only manufacturers' asso- 

 ciation of hardwoods represented at that meeting, and we were accorded 

 every courtesy and every privilege and were given all of the time that 

 was necessary for us to have in proceeding with that committee work. It 

 was our thought that we should be just as liberal as it was possible to be 

 in contributing our part toward that program which has been brought to 

 this, the Chicago conference, for your consideration, seeking in no way to 

 take anv advantage by virtue of the fact that we were sitting in and fol- 

 lowing out the idea of the Washington conference, but to leave the matter 

 as open and as completely open as it was possible for broad-minded and 

 broad-visioned people to do, and for that character and type of people 

 to accept and to digest ; so I believe in the reading of the report that 

 it certainly ought to have the effect of withdrawing any and all sug- 

 gestions that my hardwood friends have made to have hardwood elimi- 

 nated from the consideration of this meeting. The field is still open and 

 we, as intelligent and modern business men in this great new and con- 

 structive period in the history of the world, will not be willing to say 

 that we are perfectly content at the present moment, as we may stand 

 in our own opinions, as we may feel ; but we have not yet taken the great 

 consuming public and the public that does not consume our particular 

 product, into our consideration in the formulation of the rules that we 

 are now operating under to the extent that we can do, and should do. 

 and must do. it we satisfy this crying need of the public to be heard on 

 this gri'at question of the manufacture and distribution of lumber that 

 is manufactured in the United States. 



Fortunately, or unfortunately, as the case may be, I am not only a 

 manufacturer of hardwood lumber, but I am also manufacturing in a 

 small way, and have been for the last twenty years more or less, engaged 

 in manufacturing, yellow pine lumber. For twenty-nine years of my 

 history I have been in the retail lumber business. Today, we are con- 

 suming about two and one-half million feet of hardwood lumber. In 

 addition to that, our sales for the average year going into retail yards, 

 amounts to something over 9 million feet of lumber for the average year. 

 In the territory which we must consider in a national way in this 

 program, we are using these very things that you are now considering, 

 and also considering revising our very much complicated nomenclature 

 and grading rules that we are operating under today, not only in hard- 

 wood lumber but in all lumber. 



Crying Need for Simplification 



I have more or less knowledge of tbi' grading rules of practically all 

 lumber that is manufactured in the United States, because I consume 

 more or less of that and I have realized for many years, the great 

 importance of standardizing and equalizing our grades so that people 

 who use our lumber can comprehend what they mean without having a 

 corps of engineers or technical experts to explain which grades are best 

 .•>dapted for the use for which they are intended. Unfortunately, the 

 statement was made that all manufacturers of hardwood lumber are 

 satisfied with the present rules. I was sorry that statement was made 

 for I believe on reflection and thought and further consideration my 

 friend who made that statement, will possibly be inclined to withdraw 

 it because I can state emphatically without any fear of satisfactory con- 

 tradiction that I am representing this morning a membership of prac- 

 tically 140 members of strictly hardwood manufacturers whose annual 

 capacity is something over 2 billion feet of hardwood lumber, who state 

 that they want to see a revision of these rules, and it it is not wise to 

 revise these rules to satisfy the great, crying public need, that we must 

 have an investigation of this matter for proper consideration, and if it 

 is not found practicable to revise these rules, we will not do it. Isn't 

 the program that is up in this report as liberal as it is possible for any- 

 thing to be set up? 



Besearch Would Satisfy Public 



We simply want you to go along with us in this endeavor to the 

 extreme limit of possibilities, in conjunction with the department at 

 Washington ; but the idea was that this body should make this research, 

 and then we, as men, having these matters before us, realizing the neces- 

 sity of continuing to keep the piiblic in mind in our consideration of 

 these matters, if we did not do that with our present rules, we could 

 recognize the public by saying, "we have considered our rules : we have 

 given you every consideration, and we see no need for revising these rules 

 that have been builded up for 2.5 or .SO years." I was in that conference 

 at Washington and I was there every htmr of every session. I was 

 there with other very competent men, and I am trying to keep myself 

 in a fair state of mind : but I am impressed with one thing, that I fear 

 some of the gentlemen are not impressed with and that is that you are 

 dealing with a man in our present secretary of commerce that is far above 

 any type of man that has ever occupied that position before in the his- 

 tory of this republic. When you consider in your own mind the fact 

 that you are dealing only with a technical rnan, a man whose mind 

 operates only through one channel of thought, you only have to get your 

 mind set right by a few minutes talk with Mr. Hoover, whose vision and 

 comprehension of the rules for grading lumber is far beyond the average 

 comprehension of this subject, even by men such as we, who are sitting 

 here, and we must feel like giving him an apology for doing what we 

 are doing today. If you think he does not know anything about the 

 lumber business, if you will talk to him a few minutes, you will find 

 that he is almost as well acquainted with the lumber industry as any 

 other man here. 



Challenges Hoover's Knowledge 



Mr. McCreight : I do not lielieve that. I challenge that right now. 



Mr. Sherrill : All right. I do not want to inject anything here into 

 this conference that is not proper, but I think that all of us ought to 

 understand that Mr. Hoover is not going into this program for any 

 political reasons, but because we, as lumbermen, ought to get together. 



and he is convinced of that in selling our products to the consuming 

 public ; and I do not believe that he has any other motive in mind, and 

 I do not think that he has ever been equaled by any other man in the 

 position that he is now occupying in the history of this country. 

 (Applause.) 



Believes Hoover Was Misled 



Mr. McCreight : When I went to school and was taught grammar, I 

 was taught to use the simplest words that the subject would bear, and 

 I believe we have reached that place right now. I think that this hard- 

 wood proposition has been misrepresented to Mr. Hoover. I believe that 

 an organization, the American Hardwood Lumber Association went to 

 Washington under indictment, if you please, and was to go out of busi- 

 ness, 1 believe, some time along in June. After the conference in Wash- 

 ington a few soreheads established what they call the Hardwood Manu- 

 facturers' Institute, and tried to establish themselves so as to get undue 

 advantage over, if you please, 1,400 members of the National Hardwood 

 Lumber Association, of whose members SOO are manufacturers and the 

 others are legitimate clean-cut wholesalers. I do not believe in trying 

 to inject personalities in a meeting of this kind, but that is the proposi- 

 tion that is before us, and I believe that Mr. Hoover, if he were correctly 

 informed, if he will consult the National Hardwood Lumber Association, 

 manufacturers and others, wholesalers, etc.. and other reputable manu- 

 facturers, he will be able to get some place, and I believe that Mr. Hoover 

 can be convinced that the present rules that have been in force twenty- 

 five years are practical and will serve the public. I do not believe that 

 Mr. Hoover wants his department to set up an organization, backed by 

 the government : I do not believe Mr. Hoover wants to get into that kind 

 of a mess and I believe that he ought to be correctly informed. When 

 the newspapers publish such stuff as came out in a Chicago paper last 

 night, which is gross misrepresentation, I think Mr. Hoover ought to be 

 informed about it. 



Institute Seeks All Hardwood Millmen 



Mr. Sherrill : The object of the institution that I represent is not to 

 destroy another organization in the hardwood field, but we are sincerely 

 going after 10 thousand of the manufacturers of hardwood lumber in 

 The United States. The organization that has been spoken of has nearly 

 1.300 but we have a little over 100. and we are adding strength every 

 day. We are after as many of that 10,000 manufacturers of hardwood as 

 we can get into our organization. 



The Chairman : The Chair desires to suggest that although he is ex- 

 ceedingly loath to call attention to the fact that in some of our discussion, 

 we have been getting away from the merits of the subject before us. he 

 might, if there is undue indulgence in such collateral comment, be com- 

 pelled to suggest that the discussion is not in order. 



Mr. Bissell : A few minutes ago, Mr. Young stated that Mr. Winslow 

 of the Forest Products Laboratory of Madison, is in the room. If I might 

 be permitted, I would like very much to ask that you call on Mr. Winslow 

 to give the meeting his idea as to the practicability of standardizing and 

 grading hardwood and softwoods together. I think Mr. Winslow is as 

 well qualified as anybody in the United States, perhaps, to speak on that 

 subject, as a scientific expert, the character and structure and uses of 

 all the different woods. (Applause.) 



Director Explains Laboratory's Position 



Mr. C. P. Winslow (Forest Products Lab.. Madison, Wis.) : Mr. Chair- 

 man, I wish to make a brief statement, without waiting until some of 

 the other statements have been concluded. They seem to be crowding 

 you tor floor space. It Is quite evident that a considerable difference of 

 opinion exists at this meeting as to the desirability of considering hard- 

 woods and softwoods together at this time. I think it would be well for 

 those in attendance to clearly understand the position of the Forest Prod- 

 ucts Laboratory in relation to the present grading situation. 



We have for a good many years, in one form or another, worked on the 

 question of grading, first on structural timbers. The work in that line 

 started some fifteen or more years ago. We have been working along since 

 then and on the structural timber grade, we were and are in a position 

 to put forward some very concrete and definite recommendations as to 

 our viewpoint which cover work of quite an extensive nature, running 

 over fifteen or more years. 



In a somewhat less extensive fashion and for a less number of years 

 we have been able to give some attention, to the question of the grading 

 of softwood lumber, and we have arrived at some tentative ideas or con- 

 clusions as to what would be desirable along these lines. Lack of per- 

 sonnel, funds, etc., has prevented us from extending that activity so that 

 we could go into the hardwood grading situation to an extent which would 

 enable us to arrive at even tentative recommendations and conclusions. 



Subsequent to the conference in Washington, in May, which has been 

 referred to so frequently this morning, we were invited by the National 

 Lumber Manufacturers' Association to serve on an informal committee 

 that was being appointed, and requested to permit that committee to 

 hold its meetings for approximately a week at the Laboratory at Madison. 

 We were very glad to have the committee come to Madison to confer with 

 us on this matter. We felt that, as a government institution, repre- 

 senting the Forest Service of the United States Department of Agriculture, 

 that w-e could be more effective in this whole movement, if we did not 

 serve as a member of any committee, particularly any committee having 

 to do with standards which were priinarily formulated by manufacturers 

 and not by all other interests that are affected by the grading rules and 

 standards. 



When the committee members met in Madison, I attempted to make 

 it clear at the inception of the meetings, and at other times during the 

 meetings, as it seemed necessary, that we had some ideas and recommenda- 

 tions relating to structural timbers and to softwoods or stock lumber 

 which we were glad to place before them for their consideration, dis- 

 cussion or adoption, to whatever degree they thought desirable. We are 

 prepared to do the same thing for any other recognized groups or com- 

 mittees who wish to go into that subject so that we can give our ideas 

 to other groups or interested bodies and confer with them and get their 

 viewpoints as well as our own. 



Not Prepared to Submit Hardwood Report 



We were not at the time of this meeting, prepared to place forward 

 for consideration or recommendation, anything having to do with the 

 existing hardwood grades. T do not know how long it might take, with 

 our [iresent organization and facilities, to study that situation, from all 

 the angles involved to a degree which would justify and enable us to put 

 forward recommendations. 



I think that, if it is clearly recognized that our position at the com- 

 mittee meeting, the meeting yesterday and the meeting today, has to do 

 with the structural timbers and softwood, yard stock, and has nothing 

 to do, either in the form, directly or indirectly, of approving or dis- 

 approving the matters placed before you on hardwood by your committee. 



