ORAL ARGUMENT OF HON. EDWARD J. PHELPS. 259 



That is Mr. Webster's evidence. 



Then tliey cite Captain Bryant. The British Commissioners qnote 

 Captain Bryant. It is very remarkable how full the British Commis- 

 sioners lleport is, of references to what is said, ofteu, by uukiiown men; 

 to letters, often, the writer of which is not given ; to letters or to persons 

 as in this case wliere the author is given, but the substance only is 

 stated as understood by the Commissioners, without any context; the 

 Reiiort is full of tiiat sort of evidence, which every one who has ever 

 Lad any dealing with evidence knows is tlie most likely, of any in the 

 world, to be mistaken. It is hearsay, excluded as evidence, under the 

 Common Law. Why? Simply because human experience shews that 

 you cannot get hearsay correctly. You can get what is said to be 

 hearsay, but the moment you undertake to resort to hearsay evidence, 

 yon are utterly at sea. Mr. Foster suggests that I am wrong in respect 

 to this quotation, and I am very happy to make the correction. In this 

 instance this is quoted from Ca])tain Bryant's statement, — I was wrong 

 as far as this is concerned. The context, however, shews that when 

 you get at the context that is not what Captain Bryant means — that is 

 not wliat he says. 



Sir Charles Hussell. — Would you kindly give the reference? 



Mr. Phelps. — It is our House Executive Document, No. 83, Mth Con- 

 gress, page 178. 



Sir Charles Kussell. — Where is it cited? 



Mr. Phelps. — At page 09 of the Counter Case. This is not referred 

 to by the British Commissioners. Captain Bryant recommends, in 

 October 1875, that tor two years only the killing be reduced to 85,000. 

 This is omitted from the British Commissioners Keport. Then in his 

 sworn testimony before a Congressional Committee in the year 1870, 

 his views on this subject are brought out, and this is cited in the United 

 States Counter Case page 71. This is what he says: 



In the season of 1868, before tlie pvoliihitory law was passed and enforced, nnmer- 

 OU8 parties healed on the Islands at will and took abotit two hundred and lifty 

 thousand seals. They killed mostly all the product of lS6()-'67. In makiug our 

 calculations for breeding seals we did not take that loss into consideration, so 

 that iu 1872-'73, when the cro]) of lS(iG-'()7 would have matured, we were a little 

 short. These seals had beeu killed. P'or that reason, to render tlie matter doubly 

 sure, I recommeufled to the Secretary a diminution of 15,000 seals for the two years 

 ensuing. I do not, however, wish to be understood as saying that the seals are all 

 decreasing — that the projjortionate number of male seals of the proper age to take 

 is decreasing. 



Q. The females are increasing? 



A. Yes, Sir; and conse(iuently the number of pups produced annually. 



Q. It looks, then, as if the males ought also to increase? 



A. I think that number of 100,000 was a little more than ought to have been begun 

 with. I think if we had begun at 8.3,000 there w^ould have been no necessity lor 

 diminishing. On the other hand, I think that within two years from now it could 

 be increased. 



Now it appears timt all that Mr. Bryant meant (and this is his expla- 

 nation to the Committee, not hi^ evidence in the case), was this — he 

 meant to say that the year 1808 when 240,000 had been killed had so 

 reduced the herd that he thinks it would have been safer to have begun 

 at 85,000 instead of to begin at 100,0U(>; but that in two years after it 

 could have gone to the larger ligure. And in section 818 of the British 

 Commissioners Report, quoting, they say : 



liryant states that this year (1877) there was evident increase in the number of 

 breeding males. He estimates that there were about 1,000,000 breeding seals on the 

 islands, as against 1,300,000 iu 1869. 



Mr. lilliott, who was on the Ishiuds from 1872 to 1870 makes no refer- 

 ence to the gai) iu certain classes of males, which Captain Bryant alone 



