172 ORAL AEGUMENT OF SIE RICHARD WEBSTER, Q. C. M. P. 



Senator MoRaAN. — I speak of the duties of Congress wliicb Mr. Elliott 

 seems to think incumbent upon them. 



Sir Richard Webster. — It was not Mr. Elliott, it was Oapt. Laven- 

 der, but it would not be becoming on me to comment upon what you have 

 said. I must not depart from my position but simply submit what I 

 think is fair on behalf of her Majesty's Government in this respect. 



I pass now to another subject, and that is the body of testimony to 

 show a large number of these seals never go near the Islands at all. 

 More than once it has been put to me by a Member of the Tribunal, is 

 there not evidence that a seal must go on land at some period of the 

 yearinconne(;tion with its pellage? That led me most carefully, together 

 with those who assist me, to examine the whole of the literature again, 

 so far as it was possible to do so having regard to our other duties, and, 

 as far as we can discover, not only is there no evidence that every seal 

 must go to the land, but there is very strong evidence to show that a 

 large proportion of seals every year do not go to the land. It appears 

 to stand in this way; the bulls go to the land when they have the desire 

 and capacity to command a rookery. Many of the " holluschickie " go 

 to the land certainly from the time that they are three years' old possi- 

 bly younger and haul out; but there is no evidenc*j that every young 

 male goes to the land; and, as I have said, there is strong evidence the 

 other way. There is no evidence that the females go the laud at all till 

 they come to be delivered of their first pup. There is abnndant evi- 

 dence in the Appendix, Volume II, pages 33 and 34, of the British 

 Counter Case, — a very large body of testimony showing and pointing 

 indisputably to the fact that impregnation may take place at sea, and 

 there is no evidence whatever in this Case of any virgin cows, in the 

 sense of being cows of one or two years' old, being upon the Rookeries 

 or l)eing in connection with the males upon the Islands. 



The evidence is really uncontradicted that every cow that comes to 

 the Islands, so far as it can be traced, is either going to have a pup or 

 has a pup upon the Island. I do not take the British testimony alone 

 at all, but the testimony upon both sides whether or not the virgin cow 

 who has not had a pup frequents inland waters, there is no evidence to 

 show and could be none except that a certain number of virgin cows have 

 been killed within the 8-mile distance and the 20-mile distance) and 

 still further out; but there is absolutely no evidence of the viigLri cows 

 going ashore. 



In that connexion I would pass from that reference on page 33 of the 

 2nd volume of the Appendix to the Counter Case. The aflidArits should 

 be examined by anyone who wishes to see if the evidence is (rustworthy ; 

 and I only say this, that reading it for the purpose of seeing whether 

 they were speaking to. what they saw or what was merely surmise when 

 yon look at these affidavits there can be no doubt, if the men are telling 

 the truth, impregnation takes place at sea. 



Lord Hannen. — There are 38 men who state they were eye-witnesses. 



Sir Richard Webster. — And there are the natural matters men- 

 tioned which leave it beyond all doubt. Assuming we had not this 

 very strong fact, that no cow without a pup has ever been seen on these 

 rookeries from the time she was born, that is a very strong corrobora- 

 tion that the first instinct of the cow to go to the Island is to be deliv- 

 ered of her pup. 



Now at page 139 of the first volume of the Appendix to the Counter 

 Case this matter is dealt with: 



While on the Pribilof Islands in July and Angnst of 1892 I endeavored carefully to 

 note everything that might throw lighton the (luestion as to when the virgin females 

 first receive the males, and during that time did not see one female seal that was 



