196 ORAL ARGUMENT OF SIR RICHARD WEBSTER, Q C. M. P. 



Sir Richard "Webster, — That depends on what yon mean. 



Senator Morgan. — Do they go with the holhischickie. 



Sir KiCHARD Webster. — No, I said not as distinctly as I could. 

 They do not go with the hoUuschickie; they come with the other bulls, 

 there practically being no lighting left, as I shall show presently, tliey 

 come out on the ground where they previously came out, and when the 

 cows come, instead of paying attention to them, they pay no attention 

 at all. Nobody will deny the materiality of these points. Tliese are 

 points that invite answer; and in selecting that which is important for 

 this Tribunal to consider, I have selected that which in my respectful 

 submission must be answered if our Case is going to be destroyed in 

 regard to this matter. The whole point of the contention on this i)oint 

 is this: the United States contend that pelagic sealing, and pelagic 

 sealing alone, is the cause of the diminution and deterioration; recog- 

 nizing that the other cause may be most potent, they deny iu their 

 argument that it exists. I am going to examine this position from two 

 points, first to show the decrease of seals and decrease of virile males 

 has existed markedly for a time antecedent to the period Avhen the 

 pelagic sealing could have any effect at all, according to the United 

 States contention; and, further, that the other result, namely of the 

 diuunution of harems around virile bulls in their full vigour has not 

 occurred, but, on the contrary, so far from it having occurred, the evi- 

 dence, when it is looked at and examined upon both sides, shows that 

 there has been an increase of cows per virile bull. As I do not wish to 

 refer again to break the sequence of my argument by reference to other 

 passages of the Commissioners' Eeport, I had better, perhaps, make 

 good my point that, in addition to the passage I read from page 349, iu 

 which they recognize that one of the causes may be the loss of sufficient 

 virile strength upon the rookeries, they also call attention to the impor- 

 tance of considering whether the harems have increased in size or not. 

 I call attention to page 344 of the United States Case: 



A considerable decrease in the number of female seals upon the breeding rookeries 

 might not be noticed at first where total number is so laige, but iu two or three 

 years the effect of this loss would be felt in the class of kilhxble seals, and might 

 there be quite evident. Tlie loss in one class would thus follow surely but some 

 what behind the other in time. When the diuunution iu the number of killable 

 seals became notable, attention was at once drawn to the breeding rookeries, aud 

 it was found that they were being depleted. Thus Cai)tain Webster declared : " The 

 great destruction has'been among females. Formerly there would be, on an average, 

 thirty cows to one bull; now they will not average tifteen ", 



1 shall show you presently, and I shall ask you to note it in passing, 

 that iu Cai)tain Webster's deposition iu support of the United States 

 he has not said a word as to the diminution of the size of the harems. 

 I will show you what the fiicts are from witnesses who do speak to it. 

 That statement was thought to be of so much importance it was 

 actually rei)eated by the United States Commissioners at page 350. 



I begin at the bottom of page 349 which is the last refereuce I make, 



to show the importance of these questions. 



The polygamous habits of the fur-seal have already been described, as well as the 

 separation in hauling out of the hoUuschickie or younger males from the breeding 

 rookeries. The battles among the older males for places upon the breeding grounds 

 have long been described as one of the peculiar characteristics of the species. A 

 younger "male is obliged to win his right to a harem by conflict with his older 

 brethren already in possession. Many thousands of virile young males lie at a con- 

 siderable distance on the hauling grounds, ready to engage in a struggle for a place 

 in the ali'ections of the female seal should a favorable oi)portuuity occur. 



That is when they get old enough. 



Notwithstanding the depleted condition of the rookeries, these confl.icts and strug- 

 gles still go on. They went on last year and also in 1890. 



