ORAL ARGUMENT OF SIR RICHARD WEBSTER, Q. C. M. P. 205 



foresee every point. Now on reference to the information that we have 

 from Elliott's lOth Census Report of 187(5— the one published in 1881 — 

 from weights ascertained by weighino- a large number of seal skins, the 

 skin of a seal of 4 j^ears old weighs 121bs; and the skin of a seal of 3 

 years old weighs Tibs. I merely mention that to show there had been 

 a largely increasing proportion of comparatively speaking young males 

 being killed — the Keports show it, and the sales show it. We know in 

 the year 1882 the standard was lowered in consequence of the difficulty 

 of getting the full size of skins, and accordingly yoii will find, that the 

 percentage of small skins runs up from below 50 per cent in the year 

 1873, to as high as nearly 80 per cent of male skins in the year 1889, 

 with a temporary downfall (as not nnfrequently happens), in the year 

 1885, when it fell down to something like the normal condition of mat- 

 ters. Therefore from that point of view it cannot ultimately be disputed 

 by my friends successfully in this case, that during this period of years 

 they were killing many more of the small skins than they ought to have 

 killed. But will the Tribunal kindly appreciate this for a moment? 

 The immediate result of pelagic sealing, if that was the cause, would 

 be to decrease the number of small skins — not the number of large skins. 

 1 have pointed out to the Tribunal that the breeding bull of course must 

 be more than seven years old. The killable skins which were supposed 

 originally to be taken were four or five years old — that is to say, the 

 bigger skins. The immediate result of pelagic sealing would have been 

 that when it became prevalent you would have had, in a given number 

 of seals — 1,000 or 10,000 — a laiger proportion of bigger seals to the 

 younger seals. When you got to a long series of years that would cor- 

 re(;t itself and you might get back to the old proportion. I do not think, 

 if it had been true that pelagic sealing was the main cause in the first 

 instance, but that it can be denied that you would have expected to find 

 an increase in the proportion of big skins instead of an increase in the 

 percentage of little skins. I mention that as a broad general commen- 

 tary before 1 pass to what I may call more detailed matter in connec- 

 tion with it. 



Now may I call attention to Reports upon this matter to which I sub- 

 mit (it is entirely for the Tribunal), the greatest attention must be paid. 

 I can give them all in a very convenient reference on page 241 of the 

 British Counter Case. You will find, tsir, the references given, in every 

 instance, in the margin. The original Iveports are set out in full in the 

 Appendix to the British Case volume III, part 2, running over a num- 

 ber of pages. I only refer to the Bi'itish Counter Case now in order 

 that you may have them in compendious shape, and because I think, 

 as far as I know, all the important extracts, or most of the important 

 extracts are set out here. I read from page 244 : 



In 1890, Assistant Agent A. W. Lavender. 



Now this is an Agent still employed by the United States engaged 

 in assisting in getting up Affidavits for this case to a large extent, and 

 there are two affidavits from him not contradicting this in any way: 



In 1890, Assistant Agent A. W. Lavender writes: 



The writer was sur})rised when he tirst visited the rookeries to find no ijoung hall 

 seals upon them; this looked strange to him, and he began to look up the cause, and 

 it occurred to him that, from the constant driving of young male seals and the kill- 

 ing of all the 2,-3,-4 and 5 ye;ir-olds, tliere were no young bulls left to goon the rookeries, 

 and without young blood the fur-seal industry will be something of the past in a 

 very few years. 



Now that is in the year 1890. Mr. President, I ask the Tril)unal to 

 remember this : That in that year there was made a detailed report (to 



