208 ORAL ARGUMENT OF SIR RICHARD WEBSTER, Q. C. M. P. 



ITow, I ask what is the fair conchision to be drawn from this, that 

 after 1882 not that the pups diiniiiished — it may be perfectly true that 

 tliey were killing too inanj^ for other reasons — but that the breeding 

 bulls could with difficulty be obtained from year to year. They could 

 •not get the breeding bulls, and those are the bulls that ought to be 

 supplied out of the larger seals they killed in the drives. 



Mr. Ryan, in 1885 and 188ij, also a Treasury Agent: 



As the Report will slunv, we killed but few bulla, though the Company was author- 

 ized to kuock down all old troublesome bulls comini; in their way to the number of 

 thirty, the skins of wliinli were wanted by the natives for door mats. The surplus 

 of old bulls expected to be found did not make tlieir ap})earanee in the drives or on 

 the rookeries this seasou, and I think now nor last season either. 



Mr. President, this is a time when all the persons who have considered 

 this matter, my learned friends included, are speaking of, a date when 

 pelagic sealing could have had no effect on the bulls. This is referring 

 to the years 1885 and 1880, The suggestion they make is that the very 

 earliest year when pelagic sealing would have had any sensible effect 

 woidd have been 1884, Even that is earlier than it could have had any 

 effect, but taking their own case, pelagic sealing could not have had 

 any effect upon bulls not being there to serve the rookeries in 1885 or 

 1886; and every one who is accustomed to deal with evidence will rec- 

 ognize the force of what I say. 



ISText is Mr. Palmer, who gives the result of his observations in 1890, 

 the same year that Mr. Elliott was there: 



It will be seen also that by this driving process the two or three year olds, which 

 are the onl_y ones killed for their skins, are culled out almost completely from the 

 seals which visit these islands, and therefore that very few male seals ever reach a 

 greater age; coTisequently there are not enough young hulls growing up to supply 

 even the yearly loss on the rookeries, much less to provide for any increase. 



The United States shut their eyes to every one of these facts. We 

 know that there was great pressure being exerted. I q note from memory 

 from one of the affidavits: " We were being pressed to get larger skins, 

 because the buyers complained that the larger sizes were running down." 

 I remember that extract. I will verify my recollection before I close my 

 observations. 



In the report of the Congressional Committee of the fur seals of 

 Alaska, report 3883 to the House of Representatives, Mr. Mclntyre, a 

 witness vouched over and over again by my learned friends as a witness 

 of responsibility, gave this evidence, page 118: 



Q. I want to know what the regulation has been or how the Company manages 

 in regard to taking the kind of skins demanded by the foreign market? A. We 

 always receive instructions from London as to what the market demands. There is 

 very little variation from year to j'ear. At first, ami until 1873, the agents of the 

 Company were not fully informed as to what the market rt^quired, and the skins sent 

 forward were too small; but irom 1873 to 1882 we were able to get exactly the sizes 

 required, and very little fault was found by the London people. We had then, and 

 at all times until the marauding was actively engaged in, a large surplus of animals 

 from which to make our selection. After 1883 the sizes decreased, and have con- 

 stantly decreased ever since. Last year they sent an urgent appeal to take larger 

 skins, as the sizes were running down; but we were unable to respond, and during 

 the ]ir(;sent season the catch averages still smaller in size, as we were obliged to turn 

 back for rookery service any bulls of desirable size for killing, and had very few 

 surplus of any marketable size from which to select. 



That was in the year 18S8, speaking of the year 1887. How what is 

 happening? The sizes are running down. They are obliged to kill all 

 they can in order to get their 100,000, and still the sizes run down, after 

 what year? After the year 1883. In fairness, upon this issue, what 

 answer can be given to the suggestion"? Nobody preteirds that at any 



