ORAL ARGUMENT OF SIR RICHARD WEBSTER, Q. C. M. P. 241 



Now, Mr. Presideut, on page 301, I will just read the summary with 

 regard to this interview. 



The foregoing statements are made only by those natives who in 1872-'74 were old 

 enough then to really observe and think; these men above named are the only sur- 

 vivors of that age when I was ou the island in 1872; also, when the above interview 

 was in progress, Xerick Booterin during the whole time held a small note book iu 

 his hand, open, and not seeing him make any notes or refer to it at the close of the 

 talk, he was asked by the interpreter what he wanted to do witli the book that he 

 had there; he then showed us the following written statement (iu Russian) which 

 he said he made for me, as he was not certain whether we should meet and talk, or 

 not, before I left the island. 



Then this is the statement August 6th: 



Pardon me, Mr. Elliott, I never call myself a big man, but now I shall talk what 

 I know, and will not tell what I do not know. 



I think that as the hauling grounds were, they will be if the drives were made and 

 the killing made from small ones, the large ones spared. If that is done, I think all 

 will be well. If that is not done, more harm will come to the rookeries so that there 

 will be no more hauling out on the rookeries. If a "Zapooska" is not made, then 

 we will lose the land if the Treasury does not look out. If the hauling-gi-ounds 

 could sustain the company, then the grass and everything like it would not grow 

 there now. This loss will fall upon us and upon our children. We cannot longer 

 sit quiet and talk about there being lots of seals. 



I speak to every member of this Tribunal, and I say to suggest that 

 that rei^ort is not the report of truth not by direct attack but by casting 

 suspicion upon it as was done by Mr. Carter in his original argument 

 is unworthy; I was about to justify Mr. Elliott's position when my offer 

 drew from Mr. Phelps the frank acknowledgment he did not intend to 

 attack Mr. Elliott except by criticism of his report, which he is at per- 

 fect liberty to do — I say, if you look at that report and apply to it your 

 exiDerience and knowledge of life, you cannot but come tp one conclu- 

 sion; and that is that in 1881) the impartial Treasury Agent, Mr. Goff, 

 who is still in the service of the Government, Colonel Murray, Mr. Eet- 

 tleton, and Mr. Lavender, as well as Mr. Elliott, came to the conclusion 

 the bulls had been j)ractically exterminated from this island for some 

 years before. 



Now the evidence in rebuttal of this from Mr. Stanley Brown is rather 

 curious, and I read from the second volume of the United States 

 Appendix, at page 18, under the head of redriving: 



From my knowledge of the vitality of seals I do not believe any injury ever 

 occurred to the reproductive powers of the male seals from redriving that would 

 retard the increase of the herd, and that the driving of 1890 necessary to secure 

 about 22,000 skins could not have caused nor played any important part in the 

 decrease that was apparent ou every baud last year. 



Now that affidavit was made after a few months' or rather a few week's 

 examination, of the rookeries by Mr. Stanley Brown. It is not saying 

 too much to ask this Tribunal not to regard such testimony, in the face 

 of the body of evidence to which I have been calling attention this 

 morning, as well as that to which I called attention on Friday last. 

 But is it true that female seals have been appearing in the catch from 

 the islands to a much greater extent than they ought to have? I will 

 ask attention on this point to the British commissioners' Keport, para- 

 graj)hs 716 to 719, and again I do not hesitate to appeal to the careful 

 way in which these gentlemen formed their opinions, and to the way in 

 which they have been corroborated by the subsequent testimony, para- 

 graph 716. 



As already indicated, all the evils incident to " driving" in any form became greatly 

 intensified when, with a diminished number of killable seals, the attempt is still 

 continued to obtain a large yearly number of skins. This occurs not only because 



B S, PT XIV 16 



