ORAL ARGUMENT OF SIR CHARLES RUSSELL, Q. C. M. P. 240 



property vindicated by tlie King of England would go beyond the 

 limits of the jurisdictional power of the King of England — would 



1018 you consider that as a right of at'solute property, which might 

 l3e vindicated even abroad out of the limits of the realm? 



Sir Charles Russell. — I should like to consider that, Baron, if 

 you think it important; but I should have thought not. 



The President. — Yes I should like to have some explanation of it. 

 If you like to think of it by to-morrow please do so. 



Senator Morgan. — Do you mean, Mr. President, going outside the 

 realm % 



The President. — Yes, with reference to the question you put before. 



Senator Morgan. — If the Government has the right by its municipal 

 laws to appropriate to itself all property that does not belong to any- 

 body else it does not necessarily follow that that right must be recog- 

 nized by other nations. 



The President. — Well, Sir Charles, perhaps you will be kind enough 

 to think of it. 



Sir Charles Russell. — Yes, I should say, as regards the nationals 

 of the particular country, that the legislative power might decree any- 

 thing it pleased as regards property in white swans or anything else 

 wherever that property was, in any part of the world, as regards sub- 

 jects or nationals; but so far as legislation could affect anything outside 

 the territory, so far as foreigners are concerned, I should have supi)osed 

 it could not affect them outside the realm. 



Senator Morgan. — The question, to my mind, arose more particu- 

 larly in respect to that part of the three propositions submitted in 

 Article I of the Treaty, relating to the right of i)eliigic hunting, as we 

 call it, the right of taking seals. It includes and makes it incumbent 

 upon the Arbitrators to tlecide as to the rights of the citizens and sub- 

 jects of both countries, not one but both. Well, it is a material fact that 

 the United States have asserted and acquir(Kl property by their munic- 

 ipal laws in the fur-seals within their recognized jurisdiction. When 

 the seals are beyond that jurisdiction, then the Tribunal has to decide 

 whether the citizens of the United States have the right to take those 

 seals although they are appropriated to the Government of the United 

 States, and their taking within the jurisdictional limits of the United 

 States is prohibited under severe penalties. It is a peculiar attitude 

 as the case is stated here, and one that has given me some concern. 



Sir Charles Russell. — May I point out, Senator, there seems to be 

 a fundamental error of fact in the statement you have made, because 

 the United States never has, by its legislation, asserted property in 

 the fur seals. 



Senator Morgan. — We differ as to that, you see. 



Sir Charles Russell. — Well, I shall be glad to be referred to any 



place where they have asserted property. They have asserted an 



exclusive right of legislation in the eastern part of Behring Sea. They 



have, by that legislation, claimed to exclude all persons from the 



pursuit of pelagic sealing in that area; but they have never 



1019 by legislation, or by judgment in any of the Courts, afifii'med 

 property in the fur-seal either in the United States or in any- 

 body else. 



The President. — That is a question of fact which may be different 

 from the other, but I would like to know your opinion on the question 

 of right in the case of swans. It is not absolutely irrelevant, I think, 

 and I should like to hear your observations about it. 



Sir Charles Russell. — Certainly, Sir, 



