440 ORAL ARGUMENT OF SIR RICHARD WEBSTER, Q. C. M. P. 



Sir EiCHARD Webster. — I quite uuclerstaiid. 



Mr. Justice Harlan. — That is not material to tlie question I -was 

 about to ask. Have you any doubt that Great Britain intended by the 

 Treaty of 1825 to cover precisely the same waters that the United 

 States Treaty of 1824 covered. 



Sir Richard Webster. — Not the slightest doubt. It is my conten- 

 tion that Great Britain intended to get so far as coast rights were con- 

 cerned, and so far as navigation and fishing rights were concerned, 

 what the United States got. 



Lord Hannen. — I think that that requires some little modification. 

 They intended to get all tliey believed the American negotiators had 

 got. If they were mistaken as to what the American negotiators had 

 got, that would not alter it. 



Sir Richard Webster. — Not in any way. Perhaps, my Lord, I 

 had not expressed myself accurately, but I understood the Judge to be 

 referring to the words of the Treaty. 



Mr. Justice Harlan. — That was all. 



Sir Richard Webster. — Not to anything behind it other wise my 

 answer would have been different. 



Lord Hannen. — They thought they were getting that which, accord- 

 ing to their interpretation, the United States had got. 



Sir Richard Webster. That is what I meant. 



Mr. Justice Harlan. — The only object of my enquiry was, to ascer- 

 tain whether in your judgment the words in the Treaty of 1825 "in any 

 part of the Grand Ocean commonly called the Pacihc Ocean were" to 

 receive any different interpretation from the words of similar imi^ort in 

 the Treaty of 1824, by reason of the fact that the words " South Sea" 

 were not mentioned in the one of 1825. 



Sir Richard Webster. — No difference at all. 



[The President of the Tribunal here consulted with Lord Hannen, 

 and Mr. Justice Harlan.] 



Senator Morgan. — Mr. President, I desire respectfully to suggest, 

 with reference to a consultation between a portion of the members of 

 this Tribunal, occupying more than ten or fifteen minutes, that it would 

 only be just to the balance of us that we should retire and have our 

 consultation where all can be heard that is said. 



Lord Hannen. — I think it right that tlie Senator should understand 

 that the conversation which arose between some members of this Tri- 

 bunal, arose entirely from the President having put a question to those 

 who are nearest to him on the subject. 



The President. — We should, of course, certainly adjourn for our 

 future decision. Whatever remarks we make in exchanging points of 

 observation which takes place between us, if it has any bearing as to 

 our decision we would, of course, make it known in our recess when we 

 adjourn. 



Senator Morgan. — I supposed from the length of the conversation 

 that it must necessarily have some bearing on this case, and when that 

 is the fact I think the entire Tribunal ought to have the benefit of the 

 observations that are exchanged between members of the Tribunal. 



The President. — As we are approaching the end of our hearings 

 altogether, perhaps it would be better not to bring in any new pro- 

 cedure. Personal observations exchanged between one member of the 

 Tribunal and another are merely considered as quite informal. If there 

 is anything in them which has any substance which may be useful to 

 bring to notice before the final deliberation between us, you may be 

 sure that we shall do so. These personal observations which have been 



