February 16, 1877. ] 



JOURNAL OFHOKTICULTORB AND COTTAGE GABDENEB, 



113 



hold exhibitions io the provinces, but a Finance Committee, 

 representing Her Majesty's Commissioners and the Council of 

 the Society, determined that the Society's funds could not be ap- 

 plied to exhibitions iu the provinces. Finding themselves in a 

 difficulty the Society provided a fund of their own which came 

 out of certain private pockets, sometimes in the shape of guaran- 

 tees and also in the shape of earnings from distant places. The 

 last exhibition at Bath left them in possession of Xl2(I0U alto- 

 gether solely to be devoted to the promotion of exhibitions iu 

 the provinces. It was stated in the circular issued by the Coun- 

 cil that these provincial exhibitions would be resumed ; but now 

 they had no money to carry them on. In 1H73, Viscount Bury be- 

 ing then Chairman of Council, a sum of i'lBUU was borrowed from 

 the provincial funds and transferred to the general funds of 

 the Society, and in that very same year i'l'JUO was paid in in- 

 terest on debentures ; so that the separate horticultural fuuds 

 were turned to account to pay off interest on the debentures. 

 But that should have been paid out of the surplus profits of 

 the Society. The Society had no business to touch that money. 

 He should like the Treasurer to tell them something of this 

 missing i'lyoij, because it should really be paid back to the 

 horticultural funds by this time, so as to enable the Society to 

 look forward to provincial shows with some prospect of success. 



Mr. Henry Wkdb (Treasurer), said he thought Mr. Hibberd 

 had answered the question about the i'lOuO, for he told them it 

 had been spent [a laugh]. He deemed it an improper thing to 

 have taken the money from that fund, hut it was done before 

 he was Treasurer. There was also a large sum of life-com- 

 position money taken, and he regretted very much it had been 

 done, because, if it had not, they would have been able to go on 

 without borrowing this money from ilr. Freake. Kvcr since, 

 as by the Charier they were obliged to make the money appear 

 from year to year in the balance-sheet, it rendered the balance- 

 sheet to that extent inaccurate and misleading. There was no 

 such fund, and in the accounts it appeared that they had a 

 larger sum in revenue than they actually had. He regretted 

 the balance-sheet had not been made out until the present 

 moment. 



Mr. Hibberd asked the Secretary if he could furnish the meet- 

 ing with a copy of the minute under which the money in 

 ■question was improperly transferred. 



The President.- — AH these proceedings took place before the 

 existence of the present Council. They appeared in the ac- 

 counts. It may be a subject for animadversion, but I cannot 

 conceive what advantage can arise from discussing statements 

 of accounts which have already appeared [hear, hear]. I think 

 Mr. Hibberd has received a very clear and full answer as to 

 this unfortunate sum, and no advantage can arise from re- 

 opening a question so long in abeyance. 



Mr. GuEDALLA thought with Mr. Hibberd that a better state- 

 ment of accounts ought to have been sixbmitted to the Fellows. 



The President. — I quite agree that fuller accounts ought to 

 have besn furnished. 



Mr. GuEDAi-LA. — We should have received a printed statement 

 of accounts. He should like to ask the Chairman how subscrip- 

 tions were coming in, as they had heard so many reports on the 

 subject. It would be well if the Fellows had some statement 

 on the subject, as it might induce people to make an effort to 

 increase the income of the Society. 



The President. — I am happy io announce that we shall, in 

 the course of this day's proceedings, proceed to the election of 

 thirty -cine new Fellows [hear, hear]. 



Mr. H. Webb. — And a great many of those who have with- 

 <lrawn from the Society are coming back to it again [hear]. 



Mr. GoEDALLA said the noble Chairman had so clearly laid 

 down their position, that he thought it best to go on and await 

 the chapter of accidents. He should with pleasure second the 

 motion for the adoption of the Report. 



Mr. Godson, sen., asked what would be the result if the 

 110,000 was paid in ? In that case, what arrangement was there 

 with the Commissioners ? 



The President. — I am glad you asked that question, because 

 it is a very important question, and a fall answer ought to be 

 given to it and clearly apprehended by all persons present. 

 Supposing the conditions of the lease are fulfilled by our raising 

 ihe revenue to £10,000 a-year and paying an annual rent, it will 

 be impossible for the Commissioners to put an end to the lease, 

 and it will be our duty to continue the connection ; and, for one 

 reason among others, that that is the only cbauce that the de- 

 benture-holders have of receiving interest on their i'50,000. So 

 long as the Society receives a sum over and above the cost of 

 mamtaining the gardens, that f-um should be paid to the de- 

 benture-holders ; that is their sole right. The only legal right 

 to the payment of the capital arises from two sourCfS. One is — 

 if at the expiration of the lease in IS'Jl the Society fulfils all the 

 -conditions of the lease, and the Cummiseioners then choose to 

 extinguish the debt, the Commissioners will be bound to pay 

 one half the debentures. That is one half. The other half is by 

 putting aside excessive receipts over the payment of the interest 

 due to the debenture-holders during the continuance of the 



lease and over the annual interest. A part of that excess is put 

 aside to redeem the capital of the debenture-holders. I do not 

 say that the second part of that will carry very much comfort to 

 the minds of the debenture-holders ; but there is this much in 

 it, that it shows us it will be our duty to carry on the gardens as 

 honest men, so that we might present a substantial security to 

 the debenture-holders [hear, hear]. 



Mr. Godson. — Are we safe at the present moment in the con- 

 tinuance of our occupation of the gardens ? Supposing that 

 i'10,000 a-year is not raised until the term expired, what then ? 



The President. — It would be two years until the termination 

 of the three years. 



Mr. Hauohton. — From Christmas next until the Christmas 

 following. Now if the income of that period comes up to the 

 indicated figure the gardens will be continued. 



Mr. Godson observed that there was one thing still regarding 

 their position which it was well to have determined. Supposing 

 that ilO,UOO annually was not received, what would be the 

 result as to all their property ? Would their possession last for 

 three years or for two years ? 



The President. — That will depend upon the action of Her 

 Majesty's Commissioners. 



Mr. Godson. — That is exactly what I want to know about. 



The President. — If at the end of that time we are not in a 

 position to pay our rent Her Majesty's Commissioners will be 

 exactly in the position of other landlords, and can, as a matter 

 of course, terminate the lease. 



Mr. Godson. — Then we are at their free will? 



The President. — Yes, we are. 



Mr. Godson then remarked that the Report of the Council 

 was the most extraordinary one he had ever seen presented to a 

 meeting. The Council started their Report by saying they 

 borrowed i'5000. 



The President. — But that is a liabihty of the Commissioners 

 — it is not a liability of this Society. 



Mr. Godson. — I am very glad to bear your explanation. 



Mr. TwEEDV wished to have some explanation about £2300 

 expenditure on the Chiswick Gardens, which was at one time a 

 most fashionable resort. It seemed to him that the Chiswick 

 Gardens had ceased to be of any usd to the Society [no, no]. 

 What he would suggest was that they should sell the Chiswick 

 Gardens [cries of " no," and laughter | . Well, he should much 

 rather that these gardens were sold and some of the money 

 appropriated to the payment of the debts of the Society than 

 that their existence should be continued. He did not see the 

 means of keeping up the cost of the establishmeni. 



The President. — My old friend proposes we should give up 

 these gardeus. I have mentioned that 47,000 plants have been 

 brought from them to these gardens. He has referred to the 

 past times of the Chiswiuk Gard-us when during some few 

 years it was a fashionable resort, but now the gardens are turned 

 to use for scientific experiments and for horticultural purposes. 

 As to Belling the Chiswick Gardens, I entirely disagree with 

 my friend [cries of " hear "J. I cannot see any good effect such 

 a proceeiling would have [bear, hear]. I do not know whether 

 my friend saw the undignified entry of the President into this 

 room, because it really looked like the present position of the 

 Society. One of his legs was firm and stout, and that I con- 

 ceive to represent the Chiswick Gardens [laughter and cheers]. 

 The other leg was weak, tottering, and useless, which bears a 

 remarkable resemblance to the South Kensington Gardens 

 [more laughter]. The crutches I take to represent the Com- 

 missioners, who alone interfered between us and bankruptcy 

 [hear, hear]. Now if the crutches gave way the sound leg 

 would be reduced to the condition of the other one, and I do 

 not know what the unfortunate man — or, carrying out the simile, 

 this Society — could do without the crutches, which represented 

 the Commissioners who alone interfered between us and bank- 

 ruptcy as I stated before [bear, and cheers]. 



Mr. LiGoiNs said they appeared to forget that in the old times 

 they were not able to meet their expenees, and that in order to 

 put themselves in proper fuuds it was necessary to do something 

 more than maintain Chiswick Gardens. If in consequence of the 

 failure of the Itoyal Horticultural Society they were to go back to 

 Chiswick Gardens, it. would be more detrimental to them than 

 anything they could do. He had been always one of those 

 who thought they ehould cultivate the connection with South 

 Kensington, not with respect to horticultural gardens so much 

 as with respect to affording them a large income [hear, hear]. 

 The South Kensington Gardens were in the midst of London, 

 and of those who cared for little but for London and its pleasures. 

 The money of these people was just as desirablt^ as the money of 

 horticulturists, but it was ouly by a union of the two that the 

 Society can be made a paying concern [hear, hear]. He hoped 

 some measures might be taken to raise the income, bo as to 

 enable the Society to continue its connection with the Com- 

 missioners. 



Mr. WoosTEB observed that the Society was losing in reputa- 

 tion by the impression which was abroad, that there existed no se- 

 curity for either capital or interest due to the debenture-holders. 



