114 



JOUBNAL OP HOBTIODLTUBB AND COTIAaE GARUKNEB. 



[ February 15, 1877. 



The President.— Would you suggest what possible property 

 this Society could ofier as security for the i'50,000 debenture 

 debt? 



Mr. 'WoosTEK said there was in the agreement with the Com- 

 missioners a clause touching the life Fellows which was for the 

 purpose of forming a sinking fund for the ultimate extinction of 

 the debenture rlebt. He only wished to remind his lordship 

 and the other Fellows of this stipulalion, and that the impres- 

 sion to which he had alluded did very serious injury to the 

 future prospects of the Society. The original interest of the 

 debenture-holders was 5 per cent., but after the expiration of 

 a year that was thought too much, and then in July, 1801, there 

 was a letter sent to the debenture-holders proposing a reduction 

 of 1 per cent. The debenture-holders consented to that propo- 

 sition, and ho thought tbio was really a legal debt due by the 

 Society to those who had taken the debentures, and that they 

 ought to be secured. 



The President. — What property have we available for paying 

 off the debt? 



Mr. WoosTER. — I am merely suggesting that the impression 

 which is abroad might probably prevent the public from joiuing 

 the Society. 



The President. — But the practical result is this, that if the 

 Fellows subscribe they will pay the debenture debt. That is 

 the practical solution of the question. What other solution can 

 there be ? 



Mr. WoosTER farther observed that it was a remarkable cir- 

 cumstance that in the Report there was no mention ns to the non- 

 faliilmeut of the conditions of the circular issued the 17th of 

 March, 1876, touching a certain series of lectures which was to 

 be given by the Society. 



The President. — My answer to that last remark is that the 

 circular was sent to all the various Fellows, and we only got one 

 answer [laughter]. We naturally did not thiok it right to esta- 

 blish lectures for one auditor [laughter]. 



Mr. GuED.tLLA thought the Council ought to disown the 

 action taken by Mr. Wilson. Some notice ought to be taken of 

 this by gentlemen on the other side of the table. 



Mr. Wilson rose to say he thought they were considering the 

 subject that day almost exclusively from a South Kensington 

 point of view. They were told the hopes of the Society de- 

 pended upon collecting funds from the neighbourhood amount- 

 ing in one year to i;10,000. 



The President. — I said the hopes of the Society if it were to 

 continue. 



Mr. Wilson said the letter in the Times ot the 19th January 

 was perfectly conclusive. They kept on trusting to the neigh- 

 bourhood of South Kensington instead of going at once to the 

 great body of horticulturists throughout the country. He 

 wanted to see a large number of horticulturists — say five thou- 

 sand country horticulturists, or horticulturists from town and 

 country, come forward and give their names as supporters of the 

 Society [hear, hear]. 



A Life Fellow said he had been told the Society had always 

 been in dilliculties. Now, supposing such a state of things as 

 that the Chairman had sketched out — that Her Majesty's Com- 

 missioners distrained upon the gardens and turned the Society 

 out of them — in what position were they likely to be in then ? be- 

 cause, from all he had ascertained, if they went back toChiswick 

 they would go back to the old condition of debt and difficulty. 



The President. — I may say I think that it the Society 

 ■were simply a scientific society and unconnected with South 

 Kensington it would get a good deal of independent support on 

 that ground [hear, hear]. I have heard freriuently one reason 

 why people do not join these gardens, and that is that they will 

 be bound hand and foot to South Kensington, and that the 

 whole object here is to keep up the gardens in a magnificent 

 state. That impression I am tuld is very strong, and that it 

 cannot be removed without disuniting the two establishments. 

 But I would do nothing to disunite the two, but endeavour to 

 preserve the union [hear, hear]. But I will say certainly that 

 if that did take place a large number of horticulturists would be 

 induced to come forward and join the Society [cries cf " hear."] 

 Then we must recollect in the case of Chiswick that it bad a 

 large debt in spite of many sacrifices. A large scheme was set 

 on foot in 18G0, and a great deal of money was spent in scientific 

 proceedings, whilst our debt at South Kensington has not arisen 

 from the prosecution of scientific research. I am told that for 

 several consecutive years they had at Chiswick beautiful weather, 

 fine summers, and hence large gatherings at the Chiswick Gar- 

 dens, and of course the receipts were very largo. Then came 

 three or four successive years of bad weather with very large 

 expenditure and next to no receipts, during which a large por- 

 tion of the debts were incurred. Since these days horticulture 

 has spread enormously. I should not be surprised that there 

 should be five thousand men ready and willing to give X'GOOU 

 for the purpose of real scientific horticulture, but I think it 

 much more likely to be got from members of the Society where 

 there is a scientific society united for social purposes with South 

 Kensington [hear, hear]. 



Lord Alfred S. Churchill. — In proposing his scheme, Mr. 

 Wilson will recollect we are tied hand and leg to these gardens 

 until two years expire, or until we raise our subscriptions to a 

 certain amount. I can hardly agree that, if we were once freed J 

 of these gardens, we would get a large amount of horticultural I 

 support from the country. I have recently returned from ' 

 Dublin, and there they maintain a horticultural society, and 

 one that is in a most flourishing condition. They have their 

 scientific meetings, they give away prizes, and do all the 

 scientific work which a horticultural society ought to do. I 

 said to a friend of mine the other day in Dublin, "I should 

 like to see your gardens." " Oh," said be, "we have got no 

 gardens " [laughter] . The fact is, they work ou without gBrtiens, 

 and subscribe toge'jher for a common purpose. Therefore, ii 

 that .answers in Dublin it ouRht to .inswer here ; but, in addi- 

 tion, we have got Chiswick (iardens, which were considerably 

 reduced in size when we spent our money so prodigally, so that 

 we can maintain our gardens at a reduced cost. If we otce got 

 rid of these gardens at South Kensington our expenses would 

 be reduced considerably, and we could keep the other gardens 

 for scientific purposes [hear, hear]. If we could get rid of the 

 incubus of these gardens Mr. Wilson's scheme must work. Afc 

 any rale, under the circumstances we must do the best we can, 

 and in view of that we have proposed various modifications in 

 your subscriptions. 



Mr. H. Veitch said his name unfortunately appeared as one 

 of those who gave their sanction to Mr. Wilson's scheme ; bnt 

 he was not prepared to go the length to which Mr. Wilson bad 

 gone. He regretted that Mr. Wilson appeared in the press ia 

 the way he had, because it seemed to him (Mr. Veitch) that Mr- 

 Wilson was trying to coerce the Society into adopting a policy 

 which would be very dangerous to the Society [hear, hear]. 

 He wished so farto disavow hia intention to adopt Mr. Wilson's 

 plan. Mr. Wilson told them that a great body cf people would 

 come from the country to subscribe to the Society, but in the 

 list which Mr. Wilson had recently circulated— that of the 5th 

 of January last — he found that the whole number of people 

 amounted to only 373 — not a very large number, cinsidering the 

 circulation the scheme had got, and out c f these 373 he should 

 think about one-third of them were already members or Fellows 

 of the Society. Now, that would reduce Mr. Wilson's list very 

 considerably [hear, hear]. With regard (o the Society itself, it 

 seemed to him that neither the horticulturists pure and simple^ 

 nor the horticulturists of South Kensington, can by themselves 

 keep the Society going. It could only be kept up by all working 

 together [cheers]. They wanted along with horticulture the 

 extras, so as to make the building at South Kensington as 

 attractive as they possibly could. They must bring their fruits 

 and flowers there to be exhibited, for it was their interest to do 

 so [hear, hear]. As regarded the gardens themselves, they did 

 not actually want thorn. They wanted a place for their meet- 

 ings and for the Council, to which they all could come. On the 

 other hand, if the South Kensingtonians would come forward 

 to liberally support the institution, he thought it would be the 

 best thing for the Horticultural Society to keep up the gardens, 

 so that they could be enjoyed. If the people would only com© 

 to-morrow (Wednesday) afternoon from the country, he could 

 promise them a very beautiful show, and that they would find 

 not only a horticultural treat but a baud of music playing for 

 their pleasure and enjoyment. That was what he called a very 

 proper amalgamation [hear, hear]. There was one point on 

 which he should like to ask a question. On page 3 of the 

 Report, in the last paragraph, it is stated — " The provincial 

 shows stand on a more favourable footing, and the Council have 

 now under consideration when and where the nest shall be 

 held." He should be scrry to hear that nothing was to be done 

 as to provincial shows. It; did seem hard that, when the money 

 had been fairly earned, the firstfruits of the provincial shows 

 should have been forcibly taken away for other purposes [hear, 

 hear]. If they had the money in hand these provincial shows 

 would be held, and, judging by the results of former shows, 

 they would bring in a very fair income to help the Society. He 

 should like to know what steps have been or are being taken 

 towards holding provincial shows this year ; on what footing 

 were they to be, and what amount of consideration the Council 

 had given to the subject ? 



The President.— I am hardly in a position to give a distinct 

 answer to that question. All I can say is we are in communica- 

 tion with one of the principal cities of England, and have a 

 very btrong hope that we shall be able to do something suc- 

 cessfully [hear, hear], and lay perhaps the foundation of a new 

 future for the Society. I have no doubt if wo are successful we 

 might have a guarantee fund which would put us out of all 

 difliculties of a financial character. If some surplus remained 

 we would have the nucleus of a capital sum which would enable 

 the Society to have a show — a provincial show — annually | hear, 

 he.'ir]. Warned by the past it is the intention of the Council 

 to invest in trustees any surplus they receive, and to have due 

 application for the same [hear, hear]. Let me correct a mis- 

 take I iuvcluutarily fell intr, I said that at the time the Society 



