AprU 5'J, ItJTl. J 



JOUiaAb OF HOaXXCUIilUilB ANiJ OOx'TAGiS GABDENEB, 



325 



room who had taken the pains to collect a few proxies against 

 the Council in the coiirae of the year [hear, hearl. If we did 

 that we should simply place an espentliture of £10 13s. on the 

 shoulders of the Society at every general meeting, and I am 

 sure no body of men like ourselves would think that a very 

 wise proceeding. But there is another and wider objection to 

 it, and it is this : — There is no sort of guarantee on the part of 

 persons getting proxies that they will be used for the purpose 

 intended [hear, hear]. What happened on the last occasion? 

 Ladies have the power of voting by proxy, and Lord Alfred 

 Churchill and others exercised what was certainly their un- 

 doubted right, in sending out circulars requesting they might 

 he furnished with proxies to vote with, in order to save the 

 Society from fiuancial ruin. In what way were the proxies 

 used ? They were used to throw the Society into Chancery 

 [cheers]. Suppose any of those ladies had been informed that 

 their proxies would be used for the purpose of throwing the 

 Society into Chancery, do you think one out of every ten of 

 these proxies would have been given ? [hear, hear]. And that 

 is 60 strong an objection that, if there were no other, it ought 

 to persuade you to reject the proposition. But there is another 

 objection — not certainly of very great importance — and that is, 

 that this Society is managed by gentlemen who have other and 

 very large calls upon their time, and who, at the sacrifice of 

 other engagements, devote their time to your service [hear, 

 hear]. If, in addition, you make them iight for their lives at 

 any time there is to be a general meeting, can you get a body of 

 gentlemen at this side of your table of sufficient standing and 

 position to incur the inevitably distasteful work in connection 

 with the Society ? I for one should decline to act on these con- 

 ditions, and I think I speak the feelings of my friends on both 

 sides of the Council Board if I say that, in addition to the em- 

 barrassments which may arise, you would have the minor em- 

 barrassment of electing a new Council should you adopt the 

 proposition before you. I put it to you to show you how strong 

 our own feelings have been on this matter, and how strongly we 

 felt that it this bye-law passed it would be prejudicial to the 

 best interests of our Society. I will not detain you longer, but 

 simply read the bye-law the Council, in accordance with their 

 pledge, now submit to you. [The Chairman here read the bye- 

 law as above.] Having now performed the duty for which the 

 Council were called together, and having spoken as I did at the 

 last general meeting, I leave the matter in your hands, taking 

 the opportunity of saying we do not recommend, with one dis- 

 sentient, the bye-law placed before you [applause]. 



Mr. Leonard strongly objected to changing the Charter of the 

 Society by giving votes by proxy, which was directly contrary 

 to the authority of the Charter. He put it to the meeting and 

 to the Council whether they were prepared to alter a Charter 

 which had been deliberately entered into ? Were they going to 

 do that at the instance of a mere party consisting of 100 or 120 ? 

 [hear, hear]. Were they, or were they not, prepared to alter 

 the Charter to gratify this small section of gentlemen ? They 

 had distinct evidence that the Fellows were perfectly satisfied, 

 as shown by their disregard of the shameful circulars which had 

 been issued and circulated [hear, hear]. He trusted that his 

 lordship in the chair, and the gentlemen of the Council beside 

 him, would use their utmost influence to prevent the Charter 

 being altered by approving of voting by proxy. 



Mr. Bateman. — Will this matter be put to the meeting without 

 a motion ? Perhaps the noble lord will inform me. 



The President. — The Council have no right to make any pro- 

 position in the case, and unless the bye-law is proposed it falls 

 to the ground. 



Mr. Bateman said he should therefore move that the bye-law 

 be accepted by the meeting. He had listened with very great 

 attention to what had fallen from the noble lord in the chair, 

 and had read what had been written by those not-always-honey- 

 mouthed newspapers, and, notwithstanding a good deal said by 

 both respecting voting by proxy, he thouglit its advantages pre- 

 dominated. He asked whether it was likely that by giving votes 

 by proxy to the country Fellows they would strengthen the 

 hands of those to the interests of the Society? He knew that 

 he, whether on the Council or off it, was always opposed to con- 

 cessions being made to the Royal Commissioners. It seemed to 

 be taken for granted on a former occasion, because it was thought 

 he was travelling in the same direction, he had the same motive 

 for his movement. It was just as likely as that because two 

 persons were seen going into Charing Cross station that both 

 were bound for Paris, instead of one being bound for Dover and 

 the other for London Bridge [a laugh]. He thought that voting 

 by proxy would strengthen the hands of the Council and raise 

 the Society in the estimation of the country [hear, hear]. At 

 the present time there must ba naturally some uneasiness 

 amongst their country friends. They were left out in the cold 

 - — fchey did not know what was going on — and yet their friends 

 in the country were those who really cultivated horticulture. 

 He regretted that the noble lord, after stating that the Council : 

 did not make this a cabinet question [a laugh], said still if the 

 Jjye-law was carried they would resign. Now this was not quite ' 



parliamentary. He should very much regret if the Council 

 threw up their portfolios [a laugh]. They had done the Society 

 good service [hear, hear], and might do it good service still, but 

 he should be sorry if the Council, after bringing this matter 

 on, were to throw the weight of their influence in the contrary 

 scale, or, if the proposition were carried, they should refuse to 

 act under it [hear, hear]. He begged to move the adoption of 

 the bye-law submitted by the Council. 



The Pkesident.— I beg to say I had no sort of authority to 

 state the Council would resign, nor do I pretend to have, and I 

 beg to withdraw that observation altogether [hear]. I in- 

 tended to say I thought the position of the Council would be 

 entirely untenable, and that you should have to provide your- 

 selves with our successors. That is my private opinion. I am 

 sorry the observation escaped me, because nothing in the shape 

 of a threat should come from the Chairman. Has Mr. Bate- 

 man's motion been seconded ? 



Mr. Charles Wilson begged to second the proposition, and 

 did so because he thought the new bye-law would bring the 

 Society a large addition of country Fellows. 



Mr. W. A. Lindsay said he wished, with a view to preventing 

 misconception as to what he said when the Chairman was speak- 

 ing, to make one or two observations. The reason he could 

 not endorse the remarks which the Chairman made on behalf of 

 the Council was that he did not feel the same strong objection 

 to the system of vote by proxy which all the other members of 

 the Council did [hear, hear]. He was not prepared to say 

 affairs would be unworkable under that system any more than 

 they were at the present time. Further than that he could not 

 go. He could not approve of the system of proxy- voting, and he 

 supposed the Council felt themselves unable to go further than 

 that, and so the Chairman made use of the word "unanimously." 

 The full object with which he retained his post as Secretary 

 was the hope that under the administration of the present 

 Council, and with the little assistance he could give, the Royal 

 Horticultural Society might become what it never had been — a 

 Society for the promotion of horticulture [hear, hear]. He did 

 not think that voting by proxy would be other than an anomaly 

 in a purely scientific society [hear, hear] ; but, inasmuch as he 

 could not go the length of condemning it in the strong terms 

 otther members did, he was unable to allow the use of the word 

 " unanimously." He did not, certainly, want to let the meeting 

 know there was a single member of the Council who approved 

 of voting by proxy. 



Dr. Denny rose to move an amendment. He thought voting 

 by proxy would be worse than useless in a horticultural society 

 — at any rate in that Society. In the first place it would place 

 power too much in the hands of one body, so that independent 

 members could not carry out any object they desired, and the 

 Council would have it in their power to act contrary to their 

 wishes. The Council could canvass for proxies to any extent 

 they thought fit — in fact, vote by proxy would place the entire 

 power in the hands of the Council [hear, hear, and no]. At the 

 present time there might be in opposition an organised body 

 which might vote with the Council — that was as horticulturists ; 

 but they did not want the Council to govern them completely, 

 nor did they want the Council to be governed by H.M.'s Com- 

 missioners [hear, hear]. He did not believe in country Fellows 

 oaring so much about vote by proxy as his friend Mr. Wilson 

 thought. If their country friends made so much about the Society, 

 or thought so much about it, they could take the rail and come up 

 there to record their votes [hear, and a laugh]. Vote by proxy 

 as it now stood, even, was most objectionable [cries of " hear "]. 

 Proxies had been brought to that table and people at the bottom 

 of the room did not know what way the votes were going to be 

 given. If Mr. Bateman's argument was worth anything the 

 specific matter voted upon ought to be printed on the back of 

 the proxy paper. A whole meeting might be in favour of some 

 particular proposition, and when tlie whole of the proxies were 

 laid on the table no one would know for what the proxy-voters 

 voted. He thought the proxy vote as it stood was a mistake. 

 He thought it was casting a slur upon the lady Fellows to have 

 the proxy vote when they came to that room to vote [hear, 

 hear]. Ladies were on School Boards, ought to be able to vote 

 f jr members of Parliament, aud indeed he hoped yet to see them 

 in the Cabinet [laughter]. Why could not ladies come there 

 aud give the Society the benefit of their opinion ? [hear, hear. J 

 He was sure if the ladies who had given their proxies some time 

 since had come there, they would have had better sense than to 

 vote for putting that Society, which was already so much in 

 debt, into a lawsuit [hear, hear]. He thought they had better 

 not give the ladies proxies any longer, but ask them to come 

 there and give their votes themselves. He should therefore 

 move " That the proposed bye-law of the Council should end at 

 the word ' repealed,' " and if his amendment were carried it 

 would have the effect of abolishing proxy-voting altogether. 

 Proxies were all very well for companies where large sums of 

 money were at stake, where people could vote on a specific 

 matter one way or the other. He therefore begged to move 

 that proxies be altogether abolished [hear, hear] . 



