Leeining said tliut tlie cmphnci . iu 

 goiuo cases, tli:>uglit tint the payment 

 of liis 3d. came directly out of b^o 

 own profits— out of his own peij-ouoA 

 iucorae. That, Mr. Leemiug; cuupi:icred, 

 was thi* wrong- way to look at it He 

 thought it would be recognised that the 

 industry and not the employer contrIbut;*d 

 the •id.' Take the factory legislation and 

 the legislation of the last 40 or 50 years, 

 which had imj)rovcd the conditions of the 

 worker. At the time those alterations wcic 

 introduced they were thought to be a gre.it 

 burden on the employer. But thos^e ini- 

 provcnicntti had increased the eificier.cy of 

 the workmen to such an extent that it had 

 benefited both the woikmen ajid the em- 

 ployer. The Employers' Liability Act put 

 an enormous cost on the employer iv the 

 first place, but did anyone think the em- 

 ployer paid it now? It was all included in 

 l)ie greater ettieieiiey of the worker, and in 

 Ihc cost of the business. Many emji'oyers 

 DOW said thai the contribution of 3d. wou'd 

 be a tax on their income, bu* they did not 

 put the cost of oiling machinery and jepair- 

 ing engines on their income. Thry | ut "f 

 iu the cost of the business. If they had a 

 Tsew ventilator under the Factory Act th-.' 

 would not consider that as a tax on tlieir 

 income. 



Mr. F. E. Allen opened the debate in oppo- 

 sition. He remarked that it was generally 

 said the opposition was to details. His 

 oppfsition was to the ]iriucij)le--. He ob- 

 jected to the benefits in so far as they were 

 derived at other people's expense. Couipul- 

 sio.i was an evil. In the next [dace, the 

 circumstances of our lives wc3'e so various 

 lliat it was utterly impossible for legisla- 

 tion of tliis kind to meet cases fnirly. The 

 third priuci|iie wa>> that of all thipgs :n 

 wliieh compulsion ought net tu be eni[. loved 

 insurance was the mcst important. Mr. 

 Allen went on to say i hat insurance was a 

 gan.bie. and contended that it was quit.- 

 obvious that it ; hould be perfectly volun- 

 tary on the part of the man who 'entered. 

 When a man was healthy and engaged in 

 healthy employment it ^as not a good thln;^ 

 for him to insure against sickness. Theri- 

 were other (asualties of life for such a man 

 against which lie ought to insure. If they 

 compelled a man tn iusuro against sickness 

 they deprived him of the power to insure 

 against som? other casualty. Employer* 



generally in England, and certainly in Can' 

 tprbury, did not want to go into the scheme. 

 They said it wa^ a great burden. Mr. 

 Lecming had quoted other employers who 

 said it was a good thing. They who op- 

 posed the Bill were not against those em- 

 ployers in-curing tlieir men. We should all 

 suffer from iiiereased cost of iiroduction, 

 proceeded Mr. Allen. He knew it was said 

 that insurance would make workers more 

 efficient. He thought it was far better for 

 workmen, as well as employers, that the 

 employer should pay a good wage — thf? 

 highest wage lie po.ssibly could — and let the 

 workman do as he liked. 



Mr. Hugh Morris asked why the Bill wa» 

 suggested r" It seemed clear thert must 

 have been some evil which it was desii-^d 

 to remedy, and that appeared to be that 

 nobudy was responsible for the poorer 

 classes and the employed classes when they 

 cam> into di-4ress. Althougn everybody felt 

 fcv them i.oljody had anything definite to do. 

 Hence a Bill had been brought forward 

 which was attempting to make a corporate 

 body responsible, and it was attempting ta 

 make the whole nation responsible. 



Mr. Frank Hooker believed that national 

 insurance would be a great boon to the cora- 

 iiunity. He was an employe.- of labour and 

 did not like pajTug, but he would rather 

 pay a stated sum and know a man who was 

 unwell could go on his club and be relieved 

 of his hard work and then come back fit 

 for his work rather than have the .'■yst'?m 

 we had to-day. 



Mr. Cnthbert Gardner mentioned that be 

 was instrumental in getting Mr. Alien to- 

 come because he saw liis letters iu the paper, 

 and his was the only idea that commended 

 itself to him (Mr. Gardner). If they were 

 going to destroy one evil they should be 

 careful not to work another evil. 



Mr. Co/-cns thoi ght that if a Bill such as 

 the present one was passed there would be 

 very few more workhouses built. If thib 

 tax was to be paid it would be paid oy 

 industry. People at large would pay it. 

 Why shouldn't they? 



Other members having taken part m tlie 

 dcbat-e, Messrs. Allen and lifeming re- 

 sponded, ind were accorded the thanks of 

 llie meeting. Following the Society's cus- 

 tom, no motion on the subject of the deba'^e 

 was put to the vote 



