228 ORAL ARGUMENT OF JAMES C. CARTER, ESQ. 



tbat way. That is pursuit by barbarians without method; without 

 making any effort to preserve the stock, destructive, of course, in its 

 character, but not of sutScient extent to endanger the existence of the 

 race of the animal. As I have said, it is only when the world makes 

 its attack through commerce that the existence of tlie race of animals 

 is in danger. It is only then. When that begins, then the danger 

 begins. Of course at the first beginning of it, when the liussians dis- 

 covered this country, and traded with these Indians and got these 

 skins, that was the beginning of an attack by the world generally u])ou 

 this stock of seals. Tliat was the beginning of an attack by civiliza- 

 tion through commerce, which is its great instrumentality. Of course, 

 at that very early period, wheu the draft was very small, it did not 

 threaten the existence of the stock at all; but by and by it did. 



When the existence of the stock is threatened, what are you to do? 

 That is the question. 



The President. That is a point of fact which may create a differ- 

 ence in right, according to your view? 



Mr. Carter, The distinction which I mean to draw is between a 

 pursuit of these seals for the purposes of personal use of the people, 

 such as they were in the habit of making before they were discovered 

 by civilized man, and a pursuit of them for the purpose of sui)p]ying 

 through commerce, the demands of the world. That is the distinction. 

 The first pursuit, which is confined to the barbarian, is not destructive 

 of the stock. Nor is the other, as long as it is limited to certain very 

 narrow proportions and conditions; but wheu it is increased, then it 

 does threaten the stock. What must you do then? You must adopt 

 those measures which are necessary to preserve the stock. And what 

 are the measures which society always employs for that purpose! I 

 have detailed them already. It is by establishing and awarding the 

 institution of property. Must society withhold its eff'ort ? Must it 

 forbear to emi)loy those agencies because here are a few hundred 

 Indians in existence who nmy have some needs in reference to them ? 

 Ko; they are not to be considered, surely. We cannot allow this herd 

 of seals to be extinguished just for the purpose of accommodating a 

 few hundred Iiulians upon that coast. Surely not. Civilization is not 

 to subordinate itself to barbarism. 



The President. It may be that the civilized fishermen are not more 

 than a few hundreds also. Tiie number of men employed is not abso- 

 lutely a fouiulation of legal discrimination or legal difference? 



Mr. Carter. You mean that those that are employed on the Priby- 

 lof Islands are a few hundreds? 



The President. No; I mean pelagic sealing may be carried on by 

 a few hundred or a few thousand Indians; but that is another matter. 

 The difference you make is whether they are Indians or civilized? 



Mr. Carter. Yes. 



The President. Suppose the Indians engage in commerce also, sell- 

 ing or bartering the skins. You would allow that also? 



Mr. Carter. When it is not destructive. 



The President. It is a question of proportion, a question of meas- 

 ure, with you? 



Mr. Carter, If it is destructive, then it is not to be allowed. They 

 have no right to destroy this race of animals. 



The President. In order to give you satisfaction, the question would 

 be to know what limits the pelagic sealing may be carried to without 

 being destructive? 



Mr. CARTER, Yes; that is practically the question; if you can say 

 that pelagic sealing can be carried on without being destructive. 



