302 ORAL ARGUMENT OF FREDERICK R. COUDERT, ESQ. 



would be tlie result; aud if I had any clieut who was ready to embark 

 his capital in tlie plundering^ of these oyster beds or the slaughter of 

 the New Zealand seals on the theory that he had an advantage over 

 the British subject because he was an American, I would advise him 

 to stay at home and enter into some more reputable business — I do not 

 believe that he would obtain immunity. 1 concede that the proposition 

 is correct as stated in the abstract — that penal laws outside the terri- 

 tory do not apply to any but citizens, as a general proposition, I do 

 not concede, even for the argument, that in the case of the Bering 

 Sea the statutes of the United States do not a])ply to every ship upon 

 that sea whatever its nationality. But that, 1 have eliminated from 

 my argument, and I concede as a general pro]^osition, that a ]ienal law 

 in such general language as to er cry j^er so Ji does not ap])ly unless a 

 crime is committed, within the jurisdiction, to a foreign citizen. Even 

 that is not universally the case. I do not know how it is in other 

 continental nations, bat 1 know for instance under the old laws of 

 Prussia, and to day, of Germany, the arm of the law will reach a citi- 

 zen who connnits an offence even in a foreign jurisdiction. He has not 

 offended the law of Prussia, he has offended ithe law of another nation 

 to which he is answerable, and yet the hand of the law extends and 

 grasps him where it may; and when we are told, as we are told, in the 

 brief of the learned Counsel, that these statutes do not apply to citi- 

 zens of other nations, I would like to ask whether they mean by that, 

 that no punishment would be inflicted, no confiscation put in force, 

 and no repressive measures set into operation, if a foreign ship should 

 accompany the ship moved and owned by citizens'? 



The President. — Perhaps we shall hear a little more explanation 

 about that from the other side in due time. 



(The Tribunal then adjourned for a short time.) 



Mr. CouDERT. — When the hour of recess arrived I was calling the 

 attention of the High Tribunal to the various laws which had been 

 cited in Mr. Phelps's argument to show what jurisdiction great nations 

 had assumed, and i)roperly assumed, to protect their jn'operty rights 

 or to protect theii industry, and a number were cited. I noted among 

 others the laws of New Zealand. It is but fair to say that our learned 

 friends on the other side have taken us to task upon this, and have 

 made such an explanation of the laws which have been cited in con- 

 nection with the facts — the geographical facts — that it is very possible 

 the illustration may not have been as valuable a one for my side as I 

 supposed, and, therefore, I prefer not to rest upon it. Other illustra- 

 tions are very strong and sufficiently prove the position that I have 

 endeavoured to take, and to make more clear, namely, that all nations 

 have found it necessary, that had marine iiiterests connected with 

 their property in territorial jurisdiction, to pass laws, make regula- 

 tions, and adopt defensive measures which were necessary to the 

 preservation of those interests. That is all I cited these cases to prove. 



Now passing from the case of New Zealand we go to Newfoundland 

 and we find tlie laws of Great Britain were passed for the purpose of 

 protecting seals and seal fisheries, and in connection with this 1 may 

 say — and it may not be irrelevant to the consideration of the general 

 subject — that all nations interested in the preservation of this animal 

 have concluded that it was inexorably necessary that some kind of 

 legal protection should be thrown round them, aud some power exer- 

 cised in their behalf under tlie penalty of absolute destruction. And 

 therefore it is that you will find that all these nations that have seal 

 proi)erty, whether Great Britain, or Gliili, or any of the South Ameri- 

 can nations, have all passed laws for the xnirpose. 



