344 ORAL ARGUMENT OF FREDERICK R. COUDERT, ESQ. 



The President.— Up to 1890? 



Mr. CouDERT.— U]) to 1890. 



The President. — They were American lessees? 



Mr. CouDERT. — Yes, it was a Corporation. 



The President. — lUit they have disagreed or broken their arrange- 

 ment witli Ilnssia? 



Mr. CouDERT. — I tliink not. The lease expired, and that is all. 



The President. — And has not been renewed. You stated yesterday 

 tlsat it is a Enssian Company, lb is a separate, independent Kussiau 

 Company, is it not? 



Mr. Coudert. — Yes, there is a Russian Company, the Company 

 that operated both places. When the lease expired, a new lease was 

 made with other parties on the Pribylof Islands, and the Russians have 

 taken another Company. 



The President. — The American lessees are not the same? 



Mr. Coudert. — No, it is a new Company. 



The President. — Are you aware the old Company ever complained 

 of pelagic sealing on the llnssian side? 



Mr. Coudert. — I think not; I think Russia took care there should 

 be no cause of complaint. 



Sir Charles Russell. — Oh! no. 



Mr. Coudert. — Till lately, of course, when the pelagic sealing was 

 prevented on our side because the United States vindicated its right 

 by stopping the ships; there is no doubt about that. Then I under- 

 stand the efforts of the pelagic sealers took a westward direction, and 

 the Commander Island seals suffered in consequence. It was only 

 when we stopped it in 1891. 



The President. — The Copper seals would be mixed pelagic and ter- 

 ritorial seals to-day, if there is pelagic sealing carried on on the Russian 

 side, westward — I would infer from that, that the skins from the Copper 

 islands or Russian islands, if those seals would be both from pelagic 

 sealing and from sealing on land, would be mixed. If there is pelagic 

 sealing carried on on that side, if that herd is subject to being hunted 

 on sea, there must be pelagic sealing skins. 



Sir Charles Russell. — I think, Mr. President, we might remove 

 a possible misapprehension about that. There can be no difference 

 between us. There would be no mixture in the Market even in the case 

 of seals pursued in the more western part of Bering Sea or North 

 Paciiic, because the ])elagic sealing would not be carried on by the 

 same persons who carried on the land clubbing on the Commander 

 Islands. They would be sold distinct. Those who are lessees and in 

 charge of the Commander Islands did not i)ractise pelagic slaughter, 

 and the skins of those killed on land would not be mixed with those of 

 the pelagic catch. 



The President. — But do they come as Copper island skins, or only 

 the other ones? 



Sir Charles Russell. — They would come as the North West catch. 



The President. — That is the question, you know. 



Mr. Coudert. — I understand that those killed by the pelagic oper- 

 ators on the other side of the Paciiic Ocean go as the Japan catch. 



Sir Richard Webster. — That is quite wrong. 



The President. — That is why we desire information. 



Mr. Phelps. — You will lind in the affidavits of the London furriers 

 a complete account of the manner in which this business is done. It is 

 only necessary to recur to that testimony to show how the skins reach 

 the London market — to find out how it is done. 



