37G ORAL ARGUMENT OF FREDERICK R COUDERT, ESQ. 



ish tlie birth rate. Anything that affects it in the slightest degree is, 

 by its tendency in that direction, fatal. 



Senator Morgan. — Mr. Condert, will you be able to give the aver- 

 age value, per skin, of the fur-seals in the markets, in the years 1891 

 and 1892. 



Mr. CouDERT. — I supiK)se we can do it — we can prepare such a 

 statement as that. Of course, this modus vive7idi was a very expensive 

 expedient to the United States. Instead of killing them in the Beh- 

 ring Sea the other parties killed them in the Xorth Pacific, and killed 

 more in the North I'acitic because they killed less or none in the Beh- 

 riug Sea. But, on the other hand, the United States had consented to 

 tie its hands, and the loss was very great. 



The President. — My learned colleague asks whether there has been 

 any inliuence from this modus vivendion the prices of sealskins? 



Mr. Coudert. — I will see if we have statistics of the prices; I am 

 unable to say that at the moment. 



Senator Morgan. — I wanted to know how much money the pelagic 

 sealers were making out of it, and how much money the United States 

 Avere making out of it — I do not care whether it increased the prices. 



Mr. Coudert. — It will be easier for me to tell you lunv much tlie 

 United States lost out of it, because it was a dead loss to the United 

 States and was entirely a one-sided bargain, in one sense. Tempora- 

 rily it resulted in a very large loss to the United States; but as the 

 United States are anxious to save the life of the herd, then of course 

 it would consent to a temporary loss in order to produce a permanent 

 benefit. 



Senator Morgan. — It raised the number of seals as I understand you 

 that was killed by the authority of the United States above 00,000 up 

 to 75,000. 



Mr. Coudert. — The modus vlvendi did? 



Senator Morgan. — Yes I do not say the modus Vivendi^ I say the 

 practice of pelagic sealing took 08,000 seals. 



Mr. Coudert. — Yes, against our 7,500. 



Senator Morgan. — Against 7,500? 



Mr. Coudert. — Yes; the only difference bein^ that at sea they did 

 not make discrimination; ours entirely consisted of males. 



Senator Morgan. — It actually resulted in a larger killing of the fur- 

 seal than the United States had permitted on the island? 



Mr. Coudert. — Yes, and yet it is stated by some of the witnesses 

 that the number of males has increased, and that they secure them 

 without the slightest difficulty. 



The President. — Was it shown that the United States ever asked 

 by diplomatic correspondence that pelagic sealing should be inter- 

 rupted on the North West coast? Perhaps in the Senate of Washing- 

 ton you had some information about it? 



Senator Morgan. — Not in the modus vivendi. 1 think not. 



Sir Charles Kussell. — Not at all. A great part of the catch 

 after the modus vivendi was on the Russian and -Japanese side. 



General Foster. — More than on the American side? 



Sir Charles Eussell. — That I do not know. 



General Foster. — It was much smaller. 



The President. — I was struck by the fact that the American Gov- 

 ernment never interfered with the question, and never asked for the 

 modus vivendi to extend to the north Pacific outside Behring Sea. 



I could understand that the British Government should object to it, 

 but I cannot understand why the American Government did not ask 

 for it. They could have asked at that time. 



