8 



And so, one of the things it seems to me that maybe we ought 

 to look at is a worldwide approach where industrial nations will 

 make some rational decisions on capital investment, and maybe we 

 can do a lot more good investing some of those cleanup dollars in 

 Africa and developing countries, rather than necessarily always 

 taking that last two-tenths of a percent of cleanup. 



Not that I am against that last bit of cleanup, but maybe we can 

 get a lot more cleanup and a lot more preservation for the same 

 dollars. You should not let the companies get off the hook for the 

 cheapest proposal, but take the same amount of dollars and get a 

 lot more environmental benefit from it. In that sense, there is al- 

 ways the great talk that we should have a carbon tax, the wealthy 

 polluting nations end up paying for what is happening in other na- 

 tions. But, it is a great idea. I do not think we are going to do that 

 right away, especially in the present economic atmospnere where 

 the country is still in turmoil over our 4V2 cent gas tax. They are 

 not going to see new taxes passed in Western democratic govern- 

 ment. 



So that maybe getting the international corporate community 

 committed to a more rational utilization of their resources may be 

 one place to get money. Is that an option? 



Mr. Pringle. It certainly sounds like a good idea to me from 

 where I sit. I could not speak authoritatively. 



Mr. Gejdenson. You know, maybe what you ought to do is meet 

 with the folks that deal with the utilities up in Massachusetts, I 

 would be happy to get you together with them, and we can look at 

 having some kind of international commitment that will do some 

 of this. 



The other thing is my question — and I think I know the answer, 

 but it is kind of instinctive. Is Africa a place that is facing popu- 

 lation pressure that is creating some of this? Is it a rapidly expand- 

 ing population that is growing drastically across Africa? 



Mr. Pringle. Yes, Mr. Chairman. It is true, there is not absolute 

 population pressure in the sense that there are a lot of vacant 

 areas. But, in fact, the growth of — the population growth rate is, 

 I believe — Dick, stop me if I am wrong — the highest of any under- 

 developed area. The actual day-to-day impact on resources is, I 

 would say, more severe probably than almost anywhere else. 



Mr. Gejdenson. So, my correct staff tells me the population will 

 double in the next quarter of a century. 



Mr. Pringle. Right. 



Mr. Gejdenson. So if that is the case, should we be directing 

 some of our effort at population programs, and are the govern- 

 ments generally interested in participating in population pro- 

 grams? 



Mr. Cobb. There is enormous population pressure in Africa. The 

 density of the population is a direct cause of cutting down the trees 

 and depleting the fertility of soils. USAID is putting as much 

 money into population programs as we are in natural resources. I 

 do not think that finding resources are a major problem. 



Mr. Gejdenson. OK Let me ask one last question, and then 

 turn to Mr. Johnston the short time that we have. 



How do we get the governments to see this as a priority? And 

 how do our feeding programs impact agriculture in that country? 



