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we solving problems? I do not have the answer to that. But I am 

 looking forward to the information that is forthcoming because I 

 think we all really have to examine that very carefully together. 

 There is so much at stake here. 



Mr. DeFazio. Right. Sort of like being in the airport and trying 

 to figure out how the alternate phone service works and what it 

 really costs. Did the consumers come out ahead there? Whereas in 

 some of the other things like MCI and Sprint, that is pretty clear 

 that consumers have come out ahead. You know, unintended effects 

 are something we have to guard against. 



I would like to propose one possibility, and this goes to some of 

 the obligations in the region. I mean, one concern I have is utilities 

 that are customers — at least those over which BPA has some au- 

 thority. Right now, going out and departing in their acquisitions 

 from what we see as a prudent least-cost path using conservation 

 and renewables. In the energy legislation last year, we basically 

 mandated that customers who got any fraction of their power or 

 services through the Western Area Power Marketing Administra- 

 tion would be required to develop least-cost plans and implement 

 those plans. Do you think that is something that we should be look- 

 ing at here? 



Mr. Hardy. Well, I think it is premature, Mr. Chairman, at this 

 time to look at that. I mean, we have got a least-cost plan. It is 

 the Council's plan. 



Mr. DeFazio. Right. But an individual utility is not bound by 

 that in terms of their going out and purchasing, you know, a gas 

 fired turbine or something at this point. 



Mr. Hardy. That is correct. The utility can exercise its own dis- 

 cretion to do that, although most of the investor-owned utilities, for 

 example, who do not buy any power from us, already have least- 

 cost planning requirements by virtue of their Public Utility Com- 

 mission's kind of requirements. 



Mr. DeFazio. How about your publics then? 



Mr. Hardy. Well, most of the publics buy power from us 



Mr. DeFazio. Right. 



Mr. Hardy. Most of them buy at least some significant portion 

 of their power from us and hence are influenced to a very substan- 

 tial extent by the Regional Power Act. Set the Mid-Columbias aside 

 for a second, the other two major utilities probably that do not buy 

 all of their power from us are Seattle and Tacoma. Each of which 

 have, by virtue of their own city councils, a very sophisticated inte- 

 grated, resource plan to begin with. So I do not think there is a 

 problem now. There may be a problem in the future, and it may 

 be appropriate in the future to consider that kind of a requirement. 

 What I would argue is, if we can be successful in being competitive, 

 the Council's Regional Plan will still continue to guide those ac- 

 tions, and we will not need to take what will inevitably be a much 

 heavier regulatory action. I think that is a preferable way to go 

 about it. If it does not work, then I think the kind of suggestion 

 you are making may well be the direction you want to go in. 



Mr. DeFazio. Would the Council like to comment on that? How, 

 in this world of diversified, unbundled, competitive services, do we 

 maintain the overarching mandate of the plan and the plans we 

 have for the region. How can we constrain what may not be the 



