17 



Dr. Martino. All its aeronautical R&D, which is an unwarranted subsidy 

 to industry. Five percent of the United States' aeronautical R&D is funded by 

 NASA, 95 percent by everybody else. 



They can hardly claim to be responsible for all of the development. Moreo- 

 ver, the savings from that R6cD are such that industry could afford it, since it 

 already affords half of what's going on. 



Senator Sarbanes. Now, we did not get NIH within your sights, I don't 

 think, here at the table. I was wondering what your view is of NIH. I just 

 want to lay this out so that we can give these other gentlemen a chance to re- 

 spond. 



Dr. Martino. Certainly. In my book, Science Funding, which was pub- 

 lished last year, I report some results regarding the extramural activities at 

 NIH. But I have not made a study of the intramural activities and do not feel 

 competent to comment on them. 



Senator Sarbanes. All right. I wanted to ask those who are in charge of the 

 labs and who are here today, how these poor laboratory conditions impact on, 

 one, your ability to attract and hold top-flight scientific personnel; and sec- 

 ond, what it really does to the ability to function, to carry out important re- 

 search projects. To what extent is it reaUy intruding or hampering your ability 

 to carry out your activities? 



Why don't we start with you. Dr. Murrell, and we wiU just take the three of 

 you. Then, Mr. Wells, you may have some general observation about that. I 

 will turn to you. 



Dr. Murrell. Yes. We have experienced at Beltsville an impact on recruit- 

 ment by our facilities problems. Much of the modern research in agricultural 

 research is very molecular now. It demands some very sophisticated laborato- 

 ries and sophisticated equipment. 



The problem, as I mentioned in my testimony, is that many of our laborato- 

 ries are converted buildings. They have a configuration that is difficult to 

 change. We don't have enough of the high-volume air turnover that's neces- 

 sary. We don't enough containment facilities for some of the molecular biol- 

 ogy work. 



That's our goal. That's what we're working towards. I think that we're in 

 less than a fully competitive position in trying to recruit the best scientists in 

 the country to come to Beltsville. 



However, we have had some successes because I think we have been able 

 to encourage these candidates towards that goal, and we have the support for 

 it. 



With regard to holding onto our scientists, we've been quite fortunate in 

 that regard. The turnover in the scientists at Beltsville is about 1 percent. 

 That's extremely low. 



I think it's because they recogni2e the potential at Beltsville to achieve what 

 they're interested in. I think they appreciate the support they do get, even 

 though they recognize that we have these facilities limitations. 



So I would say that we're in a fortunate position. I hope we can stay in that 

 position. But we are holding onto our best scientists. 



With regard to impact, again, as I mentioned in my testimony, our biggest 

 problem is that we have something like 800 buildings at Beltsville. Now, not 

 all of those are laboratories. Many of those are animal facilities. But we need 



