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the economy will stabilize in some reasonable simoiint of time and 

 then they will be able to make a profit. 



But I meet with some of these people professionally and pri- 

 vately, and it is a difficult environment. It is a difficult environ- 

 ment for real joint ventures to be concluded and be successful right 

 now. 



Mr. Penny. They really have to be looking many years down the 

 road to a reformed economy and a higher standard of living and a 

 nominal inflation rate. I mean, all kmds of factors really have to 

 come into play before you are looking at much in the way of profits 

 out of any venture of this sort. 



But some must be making some money. I am told that there is 

 money being made in the system. Is all the money being made in 

 the system being made in the black market? 



Mr. Infanger. Not necessarily in the black market, but there is 

 considerable money being made by bringing products into Russia or 

 taking raw products out. 



What I do not observe in my travels is substantisd joint venture 

 investment in productive facihties within Russia. There is evidence 

 all over that American and European products are being brought 

 in and sold and, of course, there is substantial export of fertilizer, 

 oil, other kinds of raw products. 



Mr. Penny. How do you feel about barter arrangements? I imder- 

 stand France, I believe Australia, I think Canada, have undertaken 

 modest barter trade arrangements with Russia. Is that an avenue 

 for the United States to pursue? 



Mr. Infanger. I am sure it is, but I would defer to Mr. 

 Goldthwait's comments yesterday. I am not the person to ask about 

 that. 



Mr. Penny. You are not the one who would have to help us nego- 

 tiate or make contacts for that kind of a deal, I take it? 



Mr. Infanger. I am there, and I will help in any way, but I just 

 can't speak to the consequences of that back on this end. 



Mr. Penny. How about the Extension Service proposal that was 

 made earlier today where we try to provide Extension Service ma- 

 terials relating to production techniques, conservation practices? Is 

 that the kind of technical assistance that you believe is in urgent 

 need at this stage? 



Mr. Infanger. There is definitely urgent need and an interest, 

 and I think some progress can be made, following on Mr. Evans' 

 proposals, which I have heard him make in Russia to groups. 



But there is a larger institutional question. There is an enormous 

 vacuum there between the research establishment under the Min- 

 istry and under the Russian Academy of Agricultural Sciences and 

 any new private farmers or the emerging processing sector. There 

 is no question this is a serious problem. 



Before 1991, there was a direct connection between the large 

 state and collective farms and the research establishment. The col- 

 lective farms contracted for research. The collective farms had spe- 

 cialists hired directly out of the research training system. For the 

 private farmers, that link to research doesn't exist. For the emerg- 

 ing processing sector, that doesn't exist. 



In this vacuum, there are lots of training schools and educational 

 efforts emerging, some of them media based, some of them school 



