25 



And I am delighted that it is, but at the same time that question 

 is something that I think, as members of the Agriculture Commit- 

 tee, we need to always be concerned, because when you take it 

 from one group and give it to the Government, you are still limiting 

 the number of choice acres that are out there and that is why I 

 brought it up. 



I will bring that up probably on anything that requires land ac- 

 quisition and so forth. I did not know that roads and highways are 

 included in that 47 percent that the gentleman said. Are they? 

 They are not? 



Mr. Leonard. No, sir. 



Mr. Kingston. What is included in it? 



Mr. Leonard. It includes primarily lands managed by the U.S. 

 Forest Service, the land managed by the Bureau of Land Manage- 

 ment, the National Park Service, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service 

 refuges and other significant ownerships, not the rights of way and 

 others. 



Mr. Kingston. What about military bases? 



Mr. Leonard. I am sure it would include the military bases. 



Mr. Kingston. This is something I think is an ongoing question. 



Mr. Leonard. Mr. Kingston, I am a native Califomian and spent 

 a lot of time there. I do not believe that red area on that map rep- 

 resents public ownership. 



Mr. Kingston. I think some of it is protected, maybe, so. 



Mr. Leonard. It is not in public ownership; most of that is in 

 private lands. 



Mr. Farr. The best map on this issue is the BLM map which 

 shows all Federal, State, and local — all Federal and State owner- 

 ship of land. That is a little more accurate, although 



Mr. Kingston. That is a lot more colorful at least. 



Mr. Farr. A great deal of the land in California is owned by 

 BLM and most of that land was left over unclaimed land. It is the 

 sort of land that nobody wanted. And the Federal Grovemment still 

 manages it, in many cases doing some creative management pro- 

 grams and trade-offs. That land, where appropriate, has gone into 

 some private ownership. 



Mr. Hamburg. Mr. Chairman, if I could just address this issue. 

 It has been a very interesting discussion about how much land is 

 tied up and who operates it and what its value is and so on, but 

 I just want to clarify something with respect that has directly to 

 do with this bill, and that is how much land remains in northern 

 California that has the qualities of ancient redwoods forests? 



Originally, before we began to cut these forests, there were 2 mil- 

 lion acres. There are now 80,000 acres approximately remaining — 

 some people say 76,000 but some say 82,000 — but somewhere 

 around 80,000 acres remains. About four-fifths of that is protected 

 currently. The remainder is not. This is the largest tract of pri- 

 vately owned ancient redwood forests that remains on the planet. 



The issue here that we are really looking at, I think, is what is 

 the value of this land not only in the sense that Congressman Fan- 

 referred to which I think is very real. I do think this is an inter- 

 national treasure and that these lands should be preserved for our 

 children and our children's children. 



