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a regional basis. We have gotten a solution in the Donut Hole, be- 

 cause in essence what has happened because of the way that we 

 negotiated that treaty is that the countries that had large fishing 

 operations there have basically had to begin to encourage some of 

 their industry people to leave business. They have been buying — 

 Governments have been buying up boats. 



It is also true that that is the focus of our concern in the Western 

 Pacific. It is the increase in the number of vessels, and the fact 

 that more and more effort is put in there. We can anticipate that 

 there is going to be a conservation problem, and we are, at least 

 on that issue, in that region, we are in front of a crisis, and we are 

 going to be working hard on that. 



But one of the problems in negotiating in a U.N. global forum, 

 as you know, things begin to 



Senator Kerry. I understand that. It is very, very chaotic when 

 you get more than 100 nations trying to play at the same forum. 

 I am not suggesting that you should not move and take the oppor- 

 tunities that you can get as you go along. That is not what I would 

 suggest, and I am all in favor of trying to reach your compartmen- 

 talized effort, et cetera. 



What I am suggesting is that those efforts are taking place with- 

 out addressing the larger, more significant issue of overcapitaliza- 

 tion. Without significant pressures forcing people to confront a 

 larger reality down the road, all we seem to be doing, at least in 

 my view, is reaching too much for these individual efforts. Whether 

 it is the Bering Sea or Pacific salmon, we are approaching inter- 

 national fisheries management without the view to the larger con- 

 frontation and without significant enough pressure, I might add, 

 for countries to try to cope with this larger picture. 



Mr. Marten. Senator Kerry, one of the things that is significant 

 about the document we are working on is that it will introduce 

 international conservation rules, and hopefully, with the applica- 

 tion of these international rules, the fishing effort will have to be 

 reduced. Perhaps at that point market forces can come into play 

 and will effect the reduction in capacity to which you referred. It 

 will be an indirect effect, but it is not being directly addressed in 

 the document. 



Senator Kerry. Of course, the precautionary principle developed 

 at the UNCED conference in Rio de Janeiro might not allow you 

 to wait for the market. The market will indeed react, prices will 

 go up, you will have a diminished supply. There will be a tradi- 

 tional supply-demand curve response. 



We have a Commerce Committee fly here that is only attracted 

 to the person speaking, so if any of you are interested in catching 

 this fly, all you have to do is open your mouth and say something 

 and it will conveniently take off. It is true. You noticed. Ambas- 

 sador. [Laughter.] 



I think it is the vibrations. 



Ambassador Colson. Is it a Massachusetts greenie? 



Senator Kerry. I think that we need to figure out how to elevate 

 overcapitalization concerns to a higher level at the negotiating 

 table. 



I think you are going to conceivably be behind the curve with the 

 amount of fishing taking place, the amount of capital that is al- 



