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controls on mortality of fish, which is totally independent of the 

 number of people. 



Senator Kerry. Let me ask you a question. 



If everybody has accepted that there is too much fishing effort 

 and there are too many boats, how can you survive and pay your 

 mortgage if you are fishing to a degree where your catch is insuffi- 

 cient to pay the mortgage? 



Captain Mirarchi. That's my point. The access benefits the fish- 

 ermen more than the fish. 



I'm in agreement that there needs to be limited access. Maybe 

 you misunderstood my point. I agree there should be limited ac- 

 cess. My point is limited access per se solely with no other meas- 

 ures in place does not guarantee long-term viability. 



Senator Kerry. I totally agree with that. It depends on what the 

 limits of access are. If you limit the access to a level where the fleet 

 is still sufficient to be able to overfish, you obviously haven't done 

 anything; correct? 



Captain MiRARCHl. Absolutely correct. 



Senator Kerry. If you limit access in a way that is managing 

 sufficiently the catch level so that the reproductive cycle works, 

 notwithstanding whatever natural disasters and other factors we 

 don't understand that are at work, then you are basically achieving 

 what is known as a sustainable fishery level. 



Captain Mirarchi. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. Senator. 



Are you saying the only thing you need to do to protect the fish- 

 ery is to limit access? 



Senator Kerry. No. 



Captain Mirarchi. We're in agreement. You're putting emphasis 

 where I'm not. 



Senator Kerry. Mrs. Johnson said "No, you do not need limited 

 access." I for the life of me do not understand how you can continue 

 to have even incentives in a system for people to get into it, know 

 that it is overcapitalized, know there are too many people chasing 

 fewer and fewer fish, and not suggest that you have got to begin 

 to diminish the number of people out there. 



Captain Mirarchi. You and I are in agreement. 



Senator Kerry. How can you assert that? 



Mrs. Johnson. It does go back to the lack of vision. It depends 

 on what you want from the fisheries. 



If you're looking for — I come fi-om Maine, OK, Maine has a dif- 

 ferent outlook on some of these things. Perhaps this won't work in 

 Massachusetts. 



But in my State, there are a number of coastal communities 

 made up of smaller fishing vessels. They depend on the fisheries. 

 One of, as I said, one of my goals is a healthy — is a viable fishery 

 that has a lot of people in it. When you limit access, often the re- 

 sponse is to get a bigger boat, and a bigger boat isn't going to 

 spread out the benefits of employment. When you limit access, peo- 

 ple always respond in a way that's favorable for their own busi- 

 ness. 



I'm not sajdng that open access is the answer, obviously it's not, 

 it got us into trouble. I don't think limiting it is going to make it 

 better. 



