28 



Senator Kerry. Let me ask a question then, because that goes 

 back to what the Captain said to me. 



You are not saying just Hmited access is the only measure, I said 

 no, it is not, because of the very thing you just described. Clearly 

 you also need management with certain restraints for those who 

 have the limited access, because if you do not have the conserva- 

 tion ethic among those who have limited access, you are right, they 

 may get a bigger boat or they may go out there for longer hours 

 ana simply wind up doing the same amount of damage. 



So, it is, it strikes me, a combination of factors that is going to 

 make a difference. 



Did you want to comment? 



Mr. Shelley. I want to raise three points. 



One part of the problem with this policy discussion is you're try- 

 ing to engage a group of people from Virginia to East Port in a con- 

 cept that, No. 1, people don't understand very readily and who 

 have very different driving forces in terms of why they're fishing, 

 and what they're wanting to get out of it. I think part of the prob- 

 lem is we're trying to apply too broad and general a concept over 

 too big an area. 



And maybe we need to talk about zones or something that brings 

 it back down to levels where people can fit their own style into it. 



The second element is most of the access limitation programs 

 that have been discussed give advantages to people with capital or 

 access to capital. 



Senator Kerry. I was about to ask. 



Mr. Shelley. That's not the only way. 



Senator Kerry. In addition, do we need to have a distinction for 

 folks like those in Maine who are, and even here, who are local 

 owners, small investors, single boat folks for whom it is a way of 

 life, versus those who are put out there by large investor driven ef- 

 forts for whom it is simply, you know, money invested? It's almost 

 in many cases fungible. 



Mr. Shelley. I have been asking myself that question with no 

 answers popping up, but it strikes me that with in-shore fisheries 

 there is literature on fisheries and other schemes that aren't based 

 on attaching market value to fishing rights that seem to be suc- 

 cessful in controlling effort within the range that Gail is talking 

 about that the fisheries go through naturally. 



With respect to the offshore fisheries with the bigger boats, you 

 could control access by limiting how many captains you licensed in 

 a zone, in an offshore zone. And that, I'm not promoting that, but 

 I'm saying that would be another mechanism. 



Senator Kerry. I want somebody to promote something. I want 

 to hear any ideas you have to offer. 



Mr. Shelley. I'm working on that. I haven't done the detail 

 work. 



Mr. Davidson. It has been slow. Nobody's done any work. 



Senator Kerry. Let me ask if there is anybody else here who has 

 a vision about the most — we are going to get to the audience in a 

 while — who has a vision about the most equitable way and sensible 

 way to approach this question of limiting access and ensure effec- 

 tive management at the same time. 



Anybody else want to tackle that? 



