38 



somehow get money from the Government to do less fishing and at 

 the same time go out and fish just as much, it is not going to work. 



So, let us keep talking about how we come at this enforcement 

 issue. 



Mr. Shelley. A couple things. 



Senator Kerry. Let me just warn people so nobody feels we are 

 cutting this off unfairly. We have only got about 15 minutes more 

 in terms of my available schedule. I do not want anybody to get cut 

 off. I want to keep moving if we can. 



Mr. Shelley. This comment hopefully will go to the fishing vi- 

 sion process that the fishing community is engaged in. I think 

 that's where it belongs. 



One of the things that I've heard repeatedly now for 4 years is 

 that regulation makes fishermen feel like they're criminals. I think 

 it's critical in the reauthorization process to make the point so loud 

 that they won't be not heard, that these are public resources, and 

 that they are being harvested by a regulated community, and that 

 people are more than willing to ask that regulated community to 

 come forward with a set of rules that they're prepared to make 

 work, and that those would be the best set of enforcement rules. 

 Because the fishermen do know how to make systems work, and 

 how to enforce them, and they have on their own in lobsters and 

 a lot of other situations. 



So, it's been demonstrated, but the fishermen, if they're going to 

 do it have to do it, and if they're not going to do it they just have 

 to accept the fact that the Federal Government is going to be inher- 

 ently clumsy and unfair, and are probably wrongminded 80 percent 

 of the time when it tries to develop the rules. And the Coast Guard 

 with its limitation on budgets is going to compound that problem. 



Senator Kerry. I agree with that comment completely. 



And let me just say that that represents my attitude about this, 

 and my approach in writing this act is give the fishermen and the 

 local councils the maximum opportunity to design the plan. You 

 folks know it. You come up with a way that is sensible and reason- 

 able, and simply have the Secreary of Commerce approve the plan. 

 This is the way it was intended to be and has been for the last few 

 years, but the problem is people have not come up with a plan. 



I think the Federal Government ought to be a choice of last re- 

 sort. But we must have a finite time period within which the coun- 

 cil must come to agreement, and if they are not going to do it, then 

 it has got to be done. And hopefully the council will do it with an 

 understanding that if the Federal Government is going to wind up 

 having to mandate it, then they are going to be subject to whatever 

 clumsiness or unfairness that comes with it. Hopefully that will be 

 an incentive for people to design something reasonable and ration- 

 al. 



I agree with you. I hope we can do that. 



Mr. Bullard. Let me give very briefly the Commerce Depart- 

 ment's position on a number of those issues that have been raised. 

 One is that, as vou know, Senator, it is the Commerce Depart- 

 ment's position that we should add an additional standard to re- 

 build stocks, not just to eliminate overfishing. That is one of the 

 things in amendment 5 that we must recognize, that the goal is to 



