52 



We would much rather see Commerce say something like we do 

 not feel this was a good action or we do not feel that what you have 

 done was wise, send it back to the council, let the council massage 

 it, let the council people look at it and forward it. We do not dis- 

 agree that the Secretary should be overseeing some of these ac- 

 tions, but we do not want the Secretary making policy himself. 



And that more or less summarizes and concludes our testimony. 

 Thank you. 



The Chairman. The councils, in a sense, could be advisory to the 

 Secretary? I am just trying to promote a little discussion here. 



We recently had a General of the Marine Corps say recruits 

 could not come in if they were married, and the Secretary over- 

 ruled him very quickly. You thought the Secretary of Defense ought 

 to tell a General in the Marine Corps to go back and study it a lit- 

 tle while? 



Mr. O'Leary. I think it probably would not have been inappropri- 

 ate for him to tell him to go reflect on it a little bit and maybe re- 

 consider his policy, which is I believe what he did. And it was then 

 retracted? 



The Chairman. It was retracted within 24 hours. The poor gen- 

 tleman's chief was on the TV saying it was the biggest boo-boo he 

 had made since he had been in the service. 



But you can see what I am getting at, the Secretary has the re- 

 sponsibility, but he does not. All he can do is say he hopes the 

 council comes out with the right policy, but he has responsibility 

 for it. 



This is a question that we are looking at closely in Washington, 

 as you well know. The councils often work extremely well, but in 

 some cases they could be too parochial for general policy. 



But let me ask you about bycatch. I am out there and I have a 

 trawler. Now, I have to comply with this new rule that you suggest 

 relative to bycatch, not to throw away 470 million pounds. 



With that particular policy, how do I respond? I am catching all 

 these other things, do I put them in other containers and bring 

 them in, or what do I do? 



Mr. O'Leary. To some degree, if you go with some sort of selec- 

 tive gear provision, you encourage the change of — of — movement 

 from one gear type to another to harvest certain species. 



The Chairman. Right, I can understand that, but suppose with 

 the gear type allowed, I still am bringing in a tremendous bycatch. 



Mr. O'Leary. There are — you would be surprised, Senator. There 

 are many, many ways that trawlers in particular can mitigate their 

 bycatch, towing speed, mesh size. If there is a will, you would be 

 surprised how many ways can be found. 



And it strikes us, quite honestly, that the small individual 

 owner/operator with a stake in the community at hand tends to 

 take better care of the resource and tends to be much more respon- 

 sive to the kinds of changes that can be made. 



On the other hand, very, very large factory ships towing at high 

 speeds with a very serious overhead and necessity for bottom line 

 considerations beyond their own immediate needs and the imme- 

 diate needs of their crew members tend to take a very different 

 perspective on what is an effective way to fish, and I think most 



