53 



of the problems we are experiencing in the North Pacific are a re- 

 sult of that kind of corporate mentality on the high seas. 



And the people that Beth and Chris represent tend to be able to 

 do a much better job at ameliorating the kinds of problems we are 

 talking about. 



The Chairman. Well, Ms. Stewart just gave us the language with 

 respect to the conflict-of-interest issue, but where is your language? 

 You have to be King Solomon to write this. I want you to write out 

 for me, how to do it. 



When I asked, you said, "Well, fishermen must be more conscien- 

 tious, have more individual responsibility, have different gear, and 

 do this and do this." It is all economics, and you have to at least 

 minimize economic loss. In other words, the solution must be effec- 

 tive, reasonable, and practical. 



Do you bring the bycatch in? Is there a market for it? 



Mr. O'Leary. There is, Senator, and if it is required to retain, 

 there would be the markets that develop. Also, one of the advan- 

 tages to forcing retention eventually is the fact that it is going to 

 slow the pace of the fishery down, which is going to provide for bet- 

 ter management of the fisheries. 



Right now, at the volumes that factory trawlers in particular are 

 able to catch, you are looking at a situation where there is no eco- 

 nomic disincentive for them to operate any other way. If they have 

 to retain, it is not going to slow down their rate of catch, but it is 

 also new markets for different kinds of meals and different kinds 

 of fishery products that would eventually result as a result of that 

 kind of policy. 



The Chairman. Well, you write it out for me. I want to look at 

 it. Just say section X to be added to the Magnuson Act. You write 

 it and I will see how it reads and try it out with some of the fisher- 

 men to see how realistic it is. You are going to have irresponsible 

 fishermen, but most are very responsible. I understand that con- 

 servation is fundamental to the success of management and not to 

 be thrown away, and I would like to get it properly in the Magnu- 

 son Act, if we can. 



Mr. O'Leary. I do not think, Senator, that you can write any 

 kind of act that is going to — or require any kind of provision that 

 is going to address every — every single contingency. However, if 

 within the act it is stated that full utilization and retention, that 

 those provisions are strengthened, and if there is a will on the part 

 of the National Marine Fisheries and the Federal Government to 

 enforce those provisions of the act, industry will adapt and will 

 move in that direction. 



I do not think we need to write some very, very tight piece of — 

 or section in the act, but I think that we need to emphasize within 

 the act that full utilization and a longer, more conservative ap- 

 proach to maximization of the resource and benefit to the nation 

 in terms of conservation and maintaining strong fisheries resources 

 are appropriate, and I think that industry will follow. 



But, you know, Commerce and the National Marine Fisheries 

 has to lead, and they are subject, quite honestly, from our perspec- 

 tive here in Alaska, to influence in Washington, DC, on the part 

 of some of the larger factory corporations that can afford to lobby 

 extensively back there, that we are not able to, and 



