620 



Mr. Waxman. How can you as a chief executive of a company 

 manufacturing a product that has been accused of killing so many 

 people, not know this information? How is it? 



Mr. James Johnston. I'm telling you that number is generated 

 by a computer and it makes two important assumptions. The first 

 is that virtually everyone that smokes and dies, dies because they 

 smoke unless they got run over by a bus. And, second, that model 

 allows people to die one, two, three, four times. I don't know how 

 that can happen. But that is what that model does. 



Mr. Waxman. Well, I'm struck by the overwhelming scientific 

 agreement on the dangers of smoking. The U.S. Public Health 

 Service, the Surgeon General, the Food and Drug Administration, 

 the World Health Organization, The National Cancer Institute, the 

 American Medical Association. I guess, all of these groups you 

 would call the anti-tobacco industry. They all say it's hazardous. 

 The experts also agree that smoking causes heart disease. Do you 

 agree that smoking causes heart disease? 



Mr. James Johnston. It may. 



Mr. Waxman. OK. They agree that smoking causes lung cancer, 

 do you agree? 



Mr. James Johnston. It may. 



Mr. Waxman. Do you know whether it does? 



Mr. James Johnston. I do not know. 



Mr. Waxman. Why not? 



Mr. James Johnston. Because all of that is 



Mr. Waxman. Proprietary? 



Mr. James Johnston [continuing]. Statistically generated data. 

 It is epidemiological as opposed to empirical. There have been no 

 laboratory studies which have been able to confirm any statis- 

 tic 



Mr. Waxman. My colleague, John Bryant, said in his opening 

 statement, his grandfather smoked all of his life and died of lung 

 cancer. Do you think that lung cancer was caused by smoking? 



Mr. James Johnston. I don't know, Mr. Chairman. 



Mr. Waxman. OK. The medical experts agree that smoking 

 causes emphysema. Do you agree? 



Mr. James Johnston. It may. 



Mr. Waxman. They agree that smoking causes bladder cancer, 

 stroke, and low birth weight. Do you agree? 



Mr. James Johnston. It may. 



Mr. Waxman. Mr. Tisch, I want to move to you for a moment. 

 In a deposition last year, you were asked whether cigarette smok- 

 ing causes cancer. Your answer was, quote, "I don't believe so." Do 

 you stand by that answer today? 



Mr. Tisch. Yes, Sir. 



Mr. Waxman. Do you understand how isolated you are in that 

 belief from the entire scientific community? 



Mr. Tisch. I do. Sir. 



Mr. Waxman. You are the head of a manufacturer of a product 

 that's been accused by the overwhelming scientific community to 

 cause cancer, and you don't know? Do you have an interest in find- 

 ing out? 



Mr. Tisch. I do, Sir. Yes. 



Mr. Waxman. And what have you done to pursue that interest? 



