766 , 



wrong with manipulating the levels of nicotine, if it is only for fla- 

 vor? 



Mr. Campbell. We don't do it. That's why I won't acknowledge 

 it. I'm sorry. 



Mr. Bryant. I have just heard you say here that, yes, we do use 

 tobacco leaves with varying levels of nicotine or to achieve a goal 

 of a particular flavor. You have said that. 



Mr. Campbell. Yes, I have. 



Mr. Bryant. I rest my case. I do not think it adds up. I think 

 I am over my time, Mr. Chairman. 



Mr. Campbell. Excuse me. Just one final point on that, Con- 

 gressman Bryant. If we would have had available the FDA data on 

 this brand family, we would have been able to do a better job of 

 explanation. We have been asking repeatedly for this information, 

 starting almost 2 weeks — as soon as we received the testimony, 

 and we've just been unable to respond because we couldn't get the 

 data. 



So if you'd like a more — that doesn't help us answer your ques- 

 tions. 



Mr. Bryant. The data that would be necessary to answer my 

 questions is exclusively in your possession, and that is — ^what kind 

 of tobacco are you putting in your cigarettes. I do not think any- 

 body else has that. I yield my time back. 



Mr. Waxman. Thank you, Mr. Bryant. I'm going to try to clarify 

 an issue that is getting to be very complicated and see if I can 

 make it clear to everybody listening to this, although I think this 

 panel understands it because I think what's happening is there's 

 a manipulation of the information. 



What this panel keeps on saying is that concentration is irrele- 

 vant to the FTC numbers. Dr. Spears cited Dr. Benowitz for that 

 very conclusion. But the reason that the concentration is irrelevant 

 to the FTC numbers is because the FTC numbers are irrelevant. 

 The FTC numbers are, as Dr. Kessler testified before us, filled with 

 difficulties because they can be distorted. 



I have a chart that I think that would be the best way to talk 

 about some of the distortions in the FTC numbers and why it's ir- 

 relevant. 



The industry's argument is based on the FTC numbers and I 

 would submit that the FTC numbers are meaningless. The tobacco 

 industry has invented a variety of ways to manipulate the tests, ac- 

 cording to Dr. Kessler. He went through many of these ways and 

 here's a list of them. The FTC numbers are based on a smoking 

 machine. That smoking machine could have two problems with it. 



The smoking machine can distort what the actual smoker is re- 

 ceiving by way of nicotine because of the ventilation in the ciga- 

 rette itself. The second thing that can be done to distort what the 

 machine would take in is the faster burning cigarette. So if it's a 

 faster burning cigarette, the machine will not take in as much nico- 

 tine. That's not what happens to smokers. 



And Dr. Benowitz, rather than being quoted appropriately for Dr. 

 Spears' proposition, concludes, and I want to read it, "We conclude 

 that smokers of low nicotine cigarettes do not consume less nico- 

 tine." That is our point. The reason they don't consume less nico- 

 tine is because the FTC numbers don't make any difference. It's 



