54 



Mr. DeNoble. Yes. It was easy to do. The lab was situated such 

 that if we stood in the operating room, we could see the self-admin- 

 istration room, and those doors could be left open. And we could 

 also sit and look into the experimental room where the animals 

 would work for food, and those doors — we had to train animals to 

 actually work 



Mr. Waxman. Just so we can understand this. I think we have 

 a photograph of what that cage looked like. That was Exhibit 8, 

 earlier referred to but not shown to the committee. 



So what happened? 



Mr. DeNoble. That's a single experimental chamber in our self- 

 administration room. As I indicated, there is a little lever or 

 switch, and you can see levers in the boxes. The animal has access 

 to water and food. There is a pump on top of the box, and there 

 is a solution behind it, probably of either nicotine or acetaldehyde. 

 The animal is hooked up to the tether that hangs down in the box, 

 and can press the lever to deliver the solution into its vein. 



Mr. Waxman. So you are there with the president of Philip Mor- 

 ris, showing him how these rats self-administer nicotine in their 

 brain 



Mr. DeNoble. In their heart. 



Mr. Waxman. This was in their heart? 



Mr. DeNoble. Yes. 



Mr. Waxman. And that this is a reinforcing agent? I assume that 

 you went through all of that information for 



Mr. DeNoble. Yes. The interesting thing was, I mean, the ques- 

 tion brought out of course, was, you know, was this addiction? 

 And 



Mr. Waxman. Who asked that question? 



Mr. DeNoble. Mr. Pollack. And I went into my routine. It's not 

 addiction, it's a reinforcing agent and it predicts abuse liability. So 

 it was an opportunity to do some educating. 



Mr. Waxman. What did Mr. Pollack say about that? 



Mr. DeNoble. He accepted the answer. We chatted about that 

 and we moved forward. 



Mr. Waxman. What about Fred Newman, he was the lawyer, did 

 he ask any questions? 



Mr. DeNoble. Mr. Newman asked if this test procedure was the 

 same test procedure that a government agency would use to dem- 

 onstrate addiction? After I corrected him about addiction, I did say 

 it's the exact procedure that NIDA would use to demonstrate abuse 

 liability, yes. 



Mr. Waxman. And NIDA is? 



Mr. DeNoble. The National Institute of Drug Abuse. 



Mr. Waxman. OK. And what was his reaction to that? 



Mr. DeNoble. He was not very happy with that reaction. He ba- 

 sically shook his head and walked off. 



Mr. Waxman. Dr. Mele, can you confirm this report of this meet- 

 ing with Shep Pollack, the president of Philip Morris in visiting the 

 lab in November of 1983? 



Mr. Mele, Yes. He did visit, he toured the lab, and he did ask 

 the question, and it was responded to just as Dr. DeNoble says. 



Mr. Waxman. Let me make an observation about the significance 

 of what you are telling us, because to this day Philip Morris has 



