245 



Mr. Sandefur. Congressman, I'm sorry. I couldn't hear your 

 question. 



Mr. Synar. The question is: The article with The New York 

 Times says that they have a list here of the Brown & Williamson 

 research projects of which it is revealed, "there is a research docu- 

 ment called controversial Ted Bates advertising targeting young 

 smokers, never used but still dangerous." 



Do you continue to deny you've never done any targeting or re- 

 search with respect to children? 



Mr. Sandefur. Congressman, I can't answer that question. I 

 know that we — we 



Mr. Synar. You just stated earlier that you have never done it. 

 Now are you withdrawing that answer? 



Mr. Sandefur. No, sir, I'm not withdrawing that answer. 



Mr. Synar. Who is Ted Bates? 



Mr. Sandefur. I can tell you that there was a lawsuit that we 

 won with, I believe, ABC who alleged that we were doing that. And 

 I just asked one of my legal counsel to let me know if that was the 

 same Bates study. I can tell you, categorically, that we do not mar- 

 ket — we do not market to 



Mr. Synar. I didn't ask you that. I asked if you had done any 

 research in the area of advertising and targeting young smokers. 



Mr. Sandefur. Not to my knowledge and certainly not during 

 my time at Brown & Williamson. 



Mr. Synar. Who is Ted Bates? 



Mr. Sandefur. Ted Bates is an advertising agency who we no 

 longer use. 



Mr. Synar. OK. Will you provide the subcommittee and the FDA 

 with the research that's referred to in this article? 



Mr. Sandefur. If I can find it, I will certainly supply it to you. 

 You may already have it. I don't know. But I've never seen it. 



Mr. Synar. OK. You criticized my bill earlier, even though it spe- 

 cifically prohibits the banning of cigarettes. Now you are aware I'm 

 sure, Mr. Sandefur, that if FDA determines that Brown & 

 Williamson or any other tobacco companies intended to manipulate 

 or control nicotine in cigarettes or oral tobacco, it will have no 

 choice under their current law status, the Food and Drug Adminis- 

 tration, but to declare your product a drug and that drugs under 

 the FDA are not allowed to be on the market unless they are, "safe 

 and effective." 



Now, if it is declared a drug, because cigarettes are not safe and 

 effective, are you aware that the FDA will have no choice but to 

 ban those cigarettes? 



Mr. Sandefur. That's my understanding, yes, sir. 



Mr. Synar. So why wouldn't you support my legislation that 

 would keep that from happening? 



Mr. Sandefur. Congressman, because I don't think the legisla- 

 tion will do what you want done. Purely and simply. I think what — 

 if I — and I take you at your word that you are not interested in 

 banning cigarettes, or obviously you would write a bill to put for- 

 ward to the House and to the Senate that would outright ban ciga- 

 rettes. So I'm taking you at your word that you don't want to ban 

 cigarettes. 



