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we are tr3dng to coordinate that insofar as is possible through the 

 EPA Gulf of Mexico Program and just kind of forcing these pro- 

 grams together. We haven't had total success. I think that is a 

 problem that needs to be worked on. I don't know exactly how to 

 approach it, but certainly on a regional basis, coordination for envi- 

 ronmental studies and the marine environment that involve all the 

 programs is something that is very desirable. 



We could come up with some schemes. A strong recommendation 

 from a committee such as this might be helpful in forcing some- 

 thing like that to happen. I am pretty sure it could be done even on 

 an interstate basis, but exactly what the mechanism is, I don't 

 know, but I think you put your finger on a very important need at 

 least on a regional basis. 



Mr. Green. I think, you know, when you compare it to NASA, 

 you know, we don't have a whole lot of different agencies or 

 groups. You know, they speak with one voice, and I think we would 

 probably get more attention if that were the case. 



Dr. Bright. Well, you know, you talk about NASA. There is a 

 Space Grant Program. There is a Sea Grant Program — Land 

 Grant — and EPA and all these programs. I happen to know that 

 probably this weekend, I believe, the Space Grant Programs in co- 

 operation with the NASA group in base St. Louis are having a 

 meeting to assess what space science can do to approach some of 

 the environmental research needs in the Gulf of Mexico. 



When you all were talking about utilizing the military, the first 

 thing that popped into my mind — I am not involved so much in the 

 very deep submergence aspect of marine underwater research as in 

 the shallower aspect above 



Mr. Green. Like we have in the Gulf of Mexico. 



Dr. Bright [continuing], like coral reefs and things like. Well, 

 the military has some very superb satellite remote sensing capabili- 

 ties that can give excellent resolution, and I have heard about 

 reading license plates from space or something. I don't know. We 

 don't need quite that good, but to get some of that superb resolu- 

 tion would be phenomenal — if we could recognize a turtle from 

 space or a dolphin from space, or if we could get something that 

 penetrates deep enough for us to recognize bleached areas on a 

 coral reef. That links directly into this undersea research program 

 and could give us a fantastic ability to cover a lot of ground at 

 least in the shallow waters. So I think we have to look beyond even 

 the underwater programs into the environmental programs and 

 into the space programs and see where all this fits together, and 

 you can't do that without some kind of plan, some kind of coordina- 

 tion. And I think there is a need there. 



Dr. Ostenso. First of all, perception is probably based on the re- 

 ality of sometime back, and this is a dramatically changed world, 

 and sometimes the world changes faster than we can catch up. I 

 say that by way of introduction to not agree with Dr. Bright on co- 

 ordination. First of all, a lot of systems are being substantially 

 opened up for dual usage. There are formalized mechanisms for 

 doing it. I think those mechanisms are going to be successful. You 

 can't pass judgment on what hasn't happened yet though. 



NOAA itself has two deputy administrators, one of whom is also 

 the Naval Deputy — the oceanographer of the Navy. The interaction 



