42 



Your enforcement programs: We had another hearing where the 

 EPA brings charges and then a big penalty is assessed and then 

 the whole thing falls down. It is all negotiated down. We had, time 

 after time, testimony to the effect that it is cheaper for people to go 

 ahead and pollute and get caught again and pay the next fme 

 which was negotiated down, so long as the fines do not go up. So 

 there is not really the incentive to obey the law and put in pollu- 

 tion controls. 



So I will have a series of questions along those lines. 



Senator Lieberman, do you have any last comment here? 



Senator Lieberman. No. 



Chairman Glenn. Senator Cochran? 



Senator Cochran. No, Mr. Chairman. 



Chairman Glenn. All right. Thank you very much for being 

 here. 



We have another panel this morning. Dr. Jay Hair, President of 

 the National Wildlife Federation, Dr. Steve Gage, President of the 

 Cleveland Advanced Manufacturing Program, and Doug Costle, 

 former EPA Administrator, who brings that expertise to the table, 

 so we welcome all of you this morning. 



Dr. Hair. 



If everyone can get shuffled as fast as possible here, we would 

 appreciate it. We do understand that Doug Costle has a scheduling 

 problem today, so we will have him on first. 



Gentlemen, we appreciate your patience this morning in bearing 

 with us. It has been a rather long morning here but productive 

 also. We have been getting through a lot of areas. 



Mr. Costle, if you would lead off, we would appreciate it. 



TESTIMONY OF DOUGLAS M. COSTLE, ^ FORMER EPA 

 ADMINISTRATOR, FORMER DEAN, VERMONT LAW SCHOOL 



Mr. Costle. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 



It is a pleasure to come before this Committee again and to com- 

 mend you for your persistence and your determination to get this 

 accomplished. 



I would like at the outset to present to the Committee on behalf 

 of myself and four other former Administrators of EPA a strong 

 letter of support for the bill that you have introduced. I will submit 

 that at this time for the record, with your permission. It is signed 

 by Russ Train, Bill Ruckelshaus, Lee Thomas, myself, and Bill 

 Reilly. 



Chairman Glenn. Without objection, it will be included in the 

 record. 2 



Good. That is a good group of people to be signed on for any envi- 

 ronmental comment. 



Mr. Costle. As you know, I supported S. 2006 two years ago and 

 I enthusiastically support S. 171. Over the past two years I have 

 served as a member of two commission groups that have examined 

 a broad range of environmental policy issues. Participating in the 

 activities of the National Commission on the Environment and the 

 Carnegie Commission on Science, Technology, and Government has 



' The prepared statement of Mr. Costle appears on page 96. 

 2 See page 101. 



