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to the table. The way to look at it is all of these fish co-evolved so if 

 you keep a healthy river system in the Shasta, for instance, the 

 Chinook come in, and then the coho salmon come in, and then the 

 steelhead come in, and they all take turns using spawning environ- 

 ments. And then the coho use little pools where there are stumps, 

 and then the chinook go out of the system generally, and the steel- 

 head stay for two or three years. There is niche partitioning so if 

 we maintain a healthy ecosystem, we have got sports fish, we have 

 got commercial fish, and we have also got the water quality that 

 these things are indicators of. 



And so I think that is what we have to stress to people is that we 

 need the salamanders at the headwaters, and if those things are 

 missing, that means we probably had things go through there, big 

 debris flows, that then had impact on the fish that were more in- 

 sidious. It is like the whole thing functions as a whole, and as you 

 fragment it, it starts to break down, and unless we rebuild it, it is 

 going to collapse. And it is pretty simple. 



Mrs. Unsoeld. My time on this round is expired. Bob, did you 

 have something you wanted to just quickly add to that? 



Mr. Naiman. Well, to come back to your first question on what is 

 ecosystem management, I put forward that it is an integrated 

 social and ecological perspective to watershed management. I stress 

 the social part because we cannot have ecosystem management 

 without including the human component. There has to be a bal- 

 ance. It is the people that are the future stewards of our land. This 

 maybe addresses your second question. The most effective ways 

 that I have seen anywhere are the development of demonstration- 

 sites to show people, whether they are farmers or whether they are 

 cattlemen or timber owners, that it can be done better. That you 

 can have ecological or environmental vitality but at the same time 

 have a good social and economic fabric in your community. 



Mrs. Unsoeld. And I believe that the Chairman when he is 

 saying what would be the one thing you would do or the one or two 

 things, I would ask that as you go back home or later today or 

 whenever you think about this that perhaps you will have addition- 

 al suggestions to give us because although you can say and we can 

 say change has to take place, for somebody who is only today look- 

 ing at the bottom line, tomorrow will never come. And how we pro- 

 vide those pilot programs or something that illustrates so they can 

 see, "Oh, it can benefit me today as well as into the future," we 

 have got to bring that into the solution. And I apologize to the rest 

 of the committee. I have taken more than my time. 



Mr. GiLCHREST. Would the gentlelady yield just for a second? 



Mrs. Unsoeld. Yes. My time is gone. 



Mr. GiLCHREST. Thank you. I live in the First District of Mary- 

 land, eastern shore, very rural, mostly agricultural, and we have 

 not had a difficult time with wetlands or other ideas of that sort to 

 protect the rivers and the Bay. We have a videotape of how farm- 

 ers can live with wetlands and improve the farming techniques 

 much the same way you were talking about the area around the 

 Shasta River so what we have done and will continue to do is send 

 to every extension office in our district, which the farmers use con- 

 stantly, a couple of those tapes which can be used to begin— it is a 

 small step — but to begin the process of spreading that education. 



