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terms of regulation of logging practices, and whether there should 

 be — this is too long for a minute — some Federal statutory frame- 

 work that should be implemented to more or less force these kinds 

 of changes to take place? 



Mr. HiGGiNS. Six Rivers is a model for anadromous fish preserva- 

 tion and for restoration programs as well. The recognition of these 

 issues has come about — well, at least in part because we have got a 

 very strong local environmental community that has forced these 

 issues on them. But then they have taken an interdisciplinary ap- 

 proach with a team of scientists from various disciplines of hydrolo- 

 gy, geology, watershed management, fisheries, and they have re- 

 solved these issues. They not only found out in science what we 

 need to do, but they put it into management. And that is the prob- 

 lem, that most of the stuff in the think tank never gets into the 

 nuts and bolts of how we work. 



And how to do that on private land, I mean, I have been working 

 with CDF till the cows come home, and they don't even want to 

 deal with these issues. So I think until there is some Federal action 

 that tightens — there is too much slip between the Clean Water Act 

 and what goes on in private forest lands. I am not exactly sure of 

 the statutory language or approach that should be implemented to 

 remedy that problem. The models — logging in California in Santa 

 Cruz, they log on some of the most unstable terrain in the entire 

 region. It is decomposed granitic sands and uplifted marine stuff, 

 and they have logged with great productivity, and they don't have 

 any problems with floods. And they say, "Boy, you can't do any- 

 thing but clear cut to make it cost effective." 



I have seen trees go from twelve inches around that are 135 

 years old out to two feet in diameter in 10 years when you remove 

 the overstory around them due to competitive release. They don't 

 disrupt the forest flora. If you tried to replant all the forest flora 

 and restore its biodiversity, it would cost you hundreds of thou- 

 sands per site, and they do their logging so that it doesn't disturb 

 the flora. The fauna, the fishes, and the biological diversity of am- 

 phibian species and spotted owls and all a host of wildlife are not 

 disrupted. So we have models even on private land in Santa Cruz 

 because the county got tough and made CDF play ball. 



So we have got the models on Forest Service land where we are 

 and Santa Cruz down a little further, which is very similar to a lot 

 of lands that are being logged on private so we know where we 

 need to go, and it is just a question of institutional denial. And the 

 industry is running private logging in California. They make their 

 own rules, they couch them in terms that are more obscure than 

 the riddle of the sphinx, and it is primarily to obscure and to make 

 enough wiggle room so that they can do what they want. And so, 

 how we are going to do that in terms of revising the Clean Water 

 Act, I will give some thought to it. 



Mrs. Unsoeld. Go ahead. 



Mr. Karr. Thank you. I would just like to make one comment 

 about history. I grew up in the Midwest where over the last 100 

 years we have seen major efforts to improve the economic value 

 and productivity potential of our agricultural lands. And what we 

 have lost in that hellbent-for-leather approach to increasing pro- 

 ductivity is the social fabric of midwestern communities. The agri- 



