58 



Mr. LaRocco. You would have to raise them by 23 percent now 

 just to catch up to real terms? 



Mr. Hardy. We would have to have raised them by a total of 23- 

 25 percent over that 10-year period. We would probably have to 

 raise them by a little more than that now, probably on the order 

 of 27 or 28 percent would be my guess, to get back up now, today, 

 to the point where we started out at 10 years ago. 



I should probably also point out, Congressman, that while it is 

 true that our rates have declined in real terms over the last 10 

 years by about 20 percent, if you extend that period to the last 15 

 years with all the run-up in WPPSS costs in the early 1980s, they 

 have actually tripled in real terms in that longer time frame. So 

 it depends a lot on what time frame you pick. 



Mr. LaRocco. Okay. 



Mr. Chairman, I tlunk that is all the questions I have. 



Mr. DeFazio. Thank you. 



Just one more question on the conservation issue and the Super 

 Good Cents. It seems to me that in some areas where alternatives 

 are available at the curb in terms of gas for single-family resi- 

 dences that we are, in fact, encouraging construction of single-fam- 

 ily all-electric homes which, as efficient as they may be, is building 

 load. I wonder to what extent that is going on. 



I mean, is there any discrimination in Super Good Cents on 

 whether gas is available at the curb, or is it just up to the discre- 

 tion of the utility? In fact, in some cases we may have utilities that 

 are not unified utilities so they aren't going to be making a choice. 

 I mean we have got an electric utility, and the gas utility may be 

 private, say, in the case of my home town. Are you looking at that 

 issue? 



Mr. Hardy. Yes, Mr. Chairman, pursuant to our changes in our 

 fuel switching policy, that is one of the areas that we are reviewing 

 and that we had actually committed to review before the current 

 budget crisis came upon us. 



It is clear to me that there have been abuses of that program to 

 build load rather than to conserve energy. While I don't think those 

 are universal or even a majority of the cases, they are significant 

 enough that they are troubling. So we are clearly looking at that 

 along with reducing the incentive levels in the Super Good Cents 

 program, and I expect that we will conclude that within the next 

 month or so and that you will definitely see, at a minimum, some 

 changes in incentive levels, lowering of incentive levels, in those 

 programs and perhaps curtailment of some of the programs alto- 

 gether, depending upon what other alternate fuel choices are avail- 

 able in particular areas. 



Mr. DeFazio. Right. It seems to me the key is if there is alter- 

 native available. Certainly in a lot of rural areas and other places 

 there is no alternative. 



Mr. Hardy. Right. 



Mr. DeFazio. So there should be some distinction made. 



On fish and wildlife, Congressman Smith touched a little bit on 

 the potential for John Day drawdown. I have seen a price tag that 

 says that, you know, for less than $100 million that facility could 

 be modified to a minimum operating pool which would increase 

 flows, as I have seen, for migrating fish, between half a day and 



