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two combustion turbines. It seems like you may have more control 

 over the emissions if you have the combustion turbines. 



And you look at the overall efficiency, I beUeve that a full-cycle 

 combustion turbine and a ground source heat pump, that entire 

 loop is more efficient than an electric furnace. 



Mr. DeFazio. In fact, when the gas witness testifies, this is a 

 question that's been raised. You have the efficiency at the CT plant 

 and then you have your transmission losses and then your conver- 

 sion at the home imit or the residential unit or the business. But 

 that is an interesting question about what's your total CO2, Even 

 though it may bum more efficiently at the home, it's not a regu- 

 lated source in terms of scrubbers or whatever else you could use 

 on what they use for CO2 or collectors of some sort. 



So that's an interesting question that I don't know the answer 



to. 



The one thing that everybody agreed on here, although there are 

 some different viewpoints represented, is that the process hasn't 

 worked that well in terms of the acquisition process or the billing 

 credits, and although there's varying opinions over the merits of 

 those or what you might think should be eligible and how they 

 might be measured, what do you think about what we've heard 

 from BPA in terms of the changes? 



You said you've seen some changes and you're optimistic. What 

 about other witnesses? Why don't I start with Jane. Do you con- 

 tinue to dialogue with BPA or have we just broken our relationship 

 off here altogether? 



Ms. Van Dyke. Obviously, we have a least-cost utihty plan and 

 one of our power suppliers in that plan is Bonneville. It's our goal 

 and will continue to be our goal as long as our plan is for Bonne- 

 ville to be competitive and to be cost-effective. 



I'm usually an optimistic person and I guess I do want to be opti- 

 mistic about Bonneville and I guess I have been because I've cho- 

 ! sen that as part of our utility's least-cost plan to continue to have 

 them as our supplier. But it does get frustrating. 



Randy says great things and I would love to beheve he can do 

 that all, but it's just not happening. We were talking at lunch and 

 here's an example. The customers went to Bonneville and said here 

 are some expenses you can cut in conservation; don't cut the cap- 



Iital, don't cut the measures, here's some overhead expenses. 

 I think one of them was like Super Good Cents advertising. Bon- 

 ' neville took none of those. All they cut from conservation was on 

 the capital side. They say here they don't do over here, and I guess 

 that's what continues to frustrate some of us out there who are 

 Northwest utilities, who are customers of Bonneville. 



You want them to be successful. Our future depends on their suc- 

 cess and so does the Northwest and there are things they can be 

 doing. It would be great if we all could make Bonneville change ex- 

 actly the way we envisioned it, but I'm certain that's not going to 

 happen. 



But there are little things they can continue to be doing and I 

 think some of these process questions are simple. I guess I'd like 

 to see how that happens in action. Are they going to sign some of 

 these smsdl one-megawatt offers that utihties have for them? Are 

 they going to be able to come to some conclusions, make a decision 



