403 



Mr. DeFazio. Thank you. No problem with that. Just a couple 

 of questions here. Show this to Matt. That goes to his comment 

 there at the beginning. It just happens that someone — I want that 

 back. That's a cartoon that was given to me. 



Mr. Dillon. I think, Mr. Congressman, this actually is a bunch 

 of utility officials watching Adam Smith go over the hill. 



Mr. DeFazio. It's a cartoon. Just because he had talked about 

 the freehanded marketplace beforehand, someone had given me a 

 cartoon that said — it has a large group of people all looMng off" into 

 the distance in various postures, kneeling, bowing, praying, and it 

 says "Utility leaders gather in a field outside Vancouver, Washing- 

 ton, where one of them claims to have seen the invisible hand of 

 the marketplace." I just thought that went to your comment. 



I'm a big Adam Smith fan. I studied him. I think that he was — 

 his predictions and his prognostications were as great as anybody 

 predicted things 212 years ago could have been, before we had 

 modem transportation, communications and a few other things. I 

 particularly like what he's done to our trade policies. We're becom- 

 ing a colony because of his trade policies. The U.S. is the only coun- 

 try that follows it. But free trade will be here someday. 



A couple of questions. Marc, I was interested in particular about 

 the fuel switclung cooperation and coordination that's going on in 

 Seattle. That's interesting. I wonder — there was some earlier ques- 

 tion or comment about — one of the witnesses — and, at this point, 

 I'm afraid I have lost track of which one it was — but about the gas 

 companies and when would they get to the point of looking at effi- 

 ciencies in terms of adopting a conservation standard for new con- 

 struction, efficiency standards above whatever percent. I think this 

 person quoted 65 percent for thermal, for hot water, and others. 



Is it not only a coordinated you both go into the house at the 

 same time kind of approach? Are they adopting more rigorous 

 standards than have traditionally prevailed in the gas industry? 



Mr. Sullivan. I think we're making some progress, but I 

 wouldn't conceal for a moment that part of my agenda is to drag 

 them along with us. I do think it is likely that brought into some 

 sort of coordinated planning and dehvery process, that they're like- 

 ly to move further and faster than they would have on their own, 

 and that is part of my agenda. 



I think City Light is near unique among regional utilities and 

 the degree of its integration with its city government. We are just 

 a department of city government, like the cops and the parks de- 

 partment. We are not insulated from our City Council or our Mayor 

 by any special purpose board, so that we are very much aware of 

 being part of a general purpose government which is supposed to 

 serve the needs of the entire community. 



I think that may be one of the reasons we're a little more out 

 front on this is that the Mayor has no intention of consigning gas 

 heat customers to the tender mercies of the gas company until such 

 time as they see fit to do the right thing on their own. 



Mr. Dillon. Mr. Chairman, if I may. It's always a risk to follow 

 Mr. Sullivan on a panel, but Snohomish County has already run 

 a small pilot program for which BPA did give us some funding to 

 write a report. We did discover that by participating with the gas 



