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of shared responsibility to create the kind of circumstances giving 

 us the confidence to sign that kind of agreement. 



Mr. DeFazio. Okay, if we can take this one step further; there 

 has been some concern, and it seems to me this would fit some of 

 your objectives in terms of reducing the burden of a large number 

 of employees of BPA and streamlining your budget and operations, 

 and some of the implementation concerns I am hearing fi*om the 

 Council. I mean, would BPA look at some sort of lump sum trans- 

 fer of its fish and wildlife responsibilities to a designated agency, 

 perhaps one of these new forums that might come about or what- 

 ever, to, you know, handle the expenditures and the implementa- 

 tion of the necessary measures on an ongoing basis? 



Mr. Hardy. We would be interested in discussing that and have 

 indicated an openness to that effect. I think there are two issues 

 of providing a lump sum — one is accountability; and the other is 

 certainty. Right now we have a large staff, primarily to make sure 

 programs are implemented in a way where we are accountable for 

 program results. And you are right, that does require a significant 

 amount of staff time. If we could move to a concept in the fish area 

 that is the parallel to the wildlife trusts we were just discussing, 

 we would not have nearly the staff requirements. The other thing 

 we would have, via the hold-harmless mechanism or some similar 

 mechanism, is the certainty that our obligations, at least under 

 Section 4(h) of the Power Act, for that particular ecosystem or par- 

 ticular reservoir area, were fulfilled. That certainty, in terms of ful- 

 filling our obligations, is worth a lot to us. 



Mr. DeFazio. How about doing this say over a 5- or 10-year pe- 

 riod with projections and measurable results say to accomplish the 

 Council's plan over a 5- or 10-year period, with real-time reevalua- 

 tion as we go along? I mean if at any point we figure out we are 

 funding things that do not work or are detrimental, we should have 

 a great deal of flexibility to withdraw fi-om those things. 



Mr. Hardy. I think that is a possibility. That has not, however, 

 been the practice, I must say, in the past few years. We have had 

 a lot of glowing words about adaptive management, yet, we have 

 not collected enough data to make the initial determinations in 

 many cases whether something was effective or not. And then we 

 have not always discontinued it, if it was not. 



I think that holds some possibilities. If you had clear goals and 

 you really could measure results, that is a way to pursue that kind 

 of an objective. Ultimately, even under that scheme, I expect we 

 are going to be held accountable for the results. But, if we have got 

 some other approach where others are accountable for the results 

 and things can truly be changed, we are very open to discussing 

 those. 



Mr. DeFazio. My time has expired. I will at this point turn to 

 Mr. LaRocco, but we will come back to this. 



Mr. LaRocco. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 



Chairman Grace, what legislative or institutional changes are 

 needed to ensure that the BPA and other federal agencies will 

 carry out the Council's Strategy for Salmon? Do you have any sug- 

 gestions for this committee or for the Congress? 



Mr. Grace. I do not have any specific ones at this time. Frankly 

 speaking, my own viewpoint, I thmk the mechanisms are in place. 



