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gressional oversight. Already, you know, in a specific sense, I see 

 the big problem is the science of salmon, and in a general sense 

 it is communication. As far as I can tell, there has been damned 

 little actual communication between the players. I mean real mean- 

 ingful stuff. And since you got involved, next week we are going to 

 have a meeting with some of the utilities sitting knees imder the 

 same table — and I welcome this. I think it is excellent, and I would 

 just ask that if there is any way you can keep your oversight task 

 force going for a long period of time, we would certainly appreciate 

 it. I welcome your oversight; it gives us some clout. 



Mr. DeFazio. Well I think perhaps that is both a compliment 

 and a Chinese curse. [Laughter.] 



But I thank you for those kind words, and actually I think Mr. 

 LaRocco and I would welcome some advocacy particularly with per- 

 haps one of the most prominent members of the Northwest delega- 

 tion, in the Northwest, regarding the need for this task force to 

 continue its tenure, because the new revised reform rules of the 

 House, would have this committee expire in the end of October. I 

 am hoping for an extension of our jurisdiction. And we would ap- 

 preciate anyone who cares to communicate with anyone of our 

 neighbors in one of those northwestern States in the comer on the 

 east side of the mountains 



[Laughter.] 



Mr. DeFazio. Mr. Grace. 



Mr. Grace. On the issue of the science, I really think there is 

 a genuine desire by ^most all the entities at this time. Science has 

 been used to block actions, and I do not see that any more through 

 most of the entities. I think everybody has a genuine desire to try 

 to come together some way and solve the problems and use the best 

 science we have got. I know in the past that has caused a lot of 

 foot dragging and all, but I do not see that any more. I think most 

 of us are worn and tired of the battle and would like to get on to- 

 wards the end and actually see the recovery. 



Mr. LaRocco. If you would yield to me, Mr. Chairman. 



Mr. DeFazio. It is your time. 



Mr. LaRocco. I tMnk the key here is, if we are experimenting, 

 if it is worth moving ahead with something that is bold, that ad- 

 dresses issues in a timely manner and the scientists are in agree- 

 ment on that, it has to be loud and clear that we are moving ahead. 

 But this is not a roll of the dice, it is not a gamble, that there is 

 some probability that some measures might result in new informa- 

 tion when the timing is right, when migration is happening — all of 

 these things. You know, fish do not wait when the juveniles are mi- 

 grating. You know, there are propitious times to do these things 

 and you have got to stick your neck out a little bit for these fish. 



Mr. Grace. I see new awareness among people. In the almost 5 

 years that I have been on the Council, I see a change in attitude 

 there that I think is for the better. 



Mr. LaRocco. Yes. Well change is slow, I mean there are a lot 

 of things that we do not want to accept. And the ESA hits us up- 

 side the head like a 2 by 4 and then that is used as excuses. I do 

 not know, you know, if you agree with what the Governor said; his 

 testimony said people use the ESA for further delay to meet their 

 personal agendas and so forth. 



