153 



provide a substantial amount of flows, probably over and above the 

 Council's phase two flow recommendations. But how much and 

 what the precise timing is, there still is a lot of debate about, and 

 I think that too will be influenced by the recovery team's rec- 

 ommendations as well as discussions among the federal agencies 

 and NMFS. 



Mr. LaRocco. Okay, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 



Mr. DeFazio. Just a last couple of follow-up questions on this 

 and then we will move on. 



We will have subsequent panels who can address some of the 

 problematic aspects of Idaho water law. I think the point Mr. 

 LaRocco raised is very good. You know, people want to feel that if 

 they do contribute or sacrifice or sell and even the voluntary sale 

 of water rights, to my understanding, in Idaho, affects your future 

 rights in the next year. So it is not totally without cost to these 

 people. You know, had it been communicated ahead of time, the 

 purpose was just to move the smolts down. It is a little odd. We 

 have got to barge salmon because there are not enough flows and 

 then we do not have flows because we have got barges. It is hard 

 for people to understand, mere mortals like me and I think some 

 of the farmers; it is a Uttle coimter-intuitive. 



But in any case, in looking at the Snake system, does BPA have 

 any estimates on the potential for conservable water that could be 

 added to flows with a combination of incentives or disincentives? 



Mr. Hardy. I would like to answer that question for the record, 

 Mr. Chairman, rather than speculate right now. 



Mr. DeFazio. Fine. 



[The information follows:] 



Water conservation is not likely to be the primary means of supplying water di- 

 rectly to benefit migrating fish. If all limitations and restrictions to the acquisition 

 and delivery of conserved water for the benefit of anadromous fish were lifted, our 

 current gross estimates indicate water conservation could provide between 150,000 

 to 300,000 acre-feet to Lower Granite flows. Opportunities for water conservation 

 at the Columbia Basin Project near Grand Coulee may provide slightly more than 

 300,000 acre-feet, but would be subject to similar constraints. 



However, it is probably not reasonable to assume that difEiculties in providing 

 conserved water for fish could be easily overcome. These difficulties include the de- 

 pendence of many irrigators on return flows for their diversions, the fact that most 

 conservation measures do not reduce actual consumptive use, the interests of junior 

 right holders who may assert claims to "pre-conservation" conditions, the timing and 

 pattern of irrigation use in comparison to fish needs, and technical and regulatory 

 problems in accounting for and protecting conserved water for in-stream use. 



Because of these difficulties, water conservation measures are Ukely to have more 

 importance in their ability to improve conditions for the individual irrigator and 

 local economic and agricultural circumstances. While a small amount of conserved 

 water could be made directly available for the benefit of migrating fish, conservation 

 may be much more valuable as a tool in facilitating other t)^es of water trans- 

 actions. 



The Northwest Power Planning Council directs various entities to analyze the re- 

 gion's abiUty to provide an additional one million acre-feet of water in the Snake 

 River using various incentives, marketing devices, and storage improvements. This 

 is likely an attainable goal over the next several years, and, while water conserva- 

 tion is not likely to directly supply a significant volume towards that goal, it will 

 be an important tool in creating opportunities for the acquisition and protection of 

 water for fish and implementing Bonneville's commitment to the regional effort to 

 rebuild Columbia River fish stocks in a manner consistent with sound scientific 

 principles. 



Mr. DeFazio. I will be asking other panel members about that 

 I guess, but I will not get too much into the irrigation discoimt 



