477 



should commence the debate. I think that to question where we are 

 at today in terms of the Council's plein and our past efforts — and 

 I think I am hearing that — I really think that you are replicating 

 some of the mistakes that were made by the forest industry in that 

 debate. And it led ultimately to a total shutdown of the forest, 

 which is going to continue. I do not believe the President's option 

 is ever going to be implemented, or not in the near future. And you 

 know, that is a catastrophe that could have been averted if the for- 

 est industry had accepted reasonable plans — or John KroU had not 

 ripped them up I guess is more accurate — in the early 1980s. We 

 would have had in place plans over which we would be disputing 

 about their revision, but there would be a very robust forest indus- 

 try being conducted on those forests. And as it is, there will be 

 none. And I just do not want to see the power industry repeat those 

 mistakes. 



Your testimony, Mr. Lovelin and Mr. Godard comes very close to 

 that, very close to that. And I have just got to caution you, that 

 you do not want a federal judge running the hydropower system of 

 the Pacific Northwest. You just do not want that. And I do not 

 want it. And I think we need to be a little bit more contributory. 

 I am not saying you should not question what we are doing, and 

 we should, but you know, to say our only concern should be the 

 cost is like saying, well, our only concern should be what could the 

 forests produce. That is not our only concern, that is not socially 

 acceptable, and it is not the law and the law is not going to be re- 

 pealed. 



Mr. LaRocco, I have more than exceeded my time. It is your turn. 



Mr. LaRocco. Well thank you. 



I have a personal beUef that if steelhead runs were at the same 

 state that salmon were in right now, that this hearing would be 

 held at Boise State University at the stadium because I think that, 

 you know, you sort of feel like salmon runs are one thing, but we 

 always have the steelhead. And Mr. Chaney, what is the status of 

 the wild stocks of steelhead in the Snake River drainage? Are you 

 concerned if the wild salmon go extinct that wild steelhead and 

 hatchery steelhead will follow them? And what measures can be 

 taken that will prevent extinction of the steelhead runs? 



Mr. Chaney. Our information on steelhead is not nearly as good 

 as it is on salmon, for a number of reasons. Salmon have been in 

 trouble for a long time and they are a more fragile critter and they 

 are more susceptible to mortalities, the dams. Also the steelhead's 

 life cycle is such we have a difficult time finding them during the 

 spawning period. But based on a lot of evidence that is currently 

 being gathered and more on a lot of anecdotal evidence of people 

 who are out there, year after year after year after year, there is 

 clear and emerging evidence that our wild steelhead are in serious 

 trouble. In fact, I would not be at all surprised to see a petition to 

 list group A steelhead in Idaho within the next 2 or 3 years, if 

 something is not done to improve juvenile migrant mortality. 



Collection and transportation seems to work better for steelhead 

 than it does for salmon, just given the inherent difference in the 

 animal. The chinook are much more vulnerable to stress and in- 

 jury. But collection and transportation the way it has been handled 

 in the past, logistically tends to focus on when there is most fish 



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