481 



Mr. DeFazio [continuing]. That we need to be taking into ac- 

 count in dealing with the totality of the ssilmon. 



I do not have any further questions for this panel unless Mr. 

 LaRocco does. 



Mr. LaRocco. Mr. Lovelin, what do you think the percentage of 

 juvenile kill is by the dams, what do your biologists teU you? 



Mr. GODARD. Can I address that? 



Mr. LaRocco. No, I want Mr. Lovelin to. 



Mr. GODARD. We operate dams, maybe we can add something to 

 it. 



Mr. Lovelin. I will answer it. There are certainly a lot of num- 

 bers out, I see that the 



Mr. LaRocco. But you have biologists that are associated with 

 the Col\imbia River 



Mr. Lovelin. I see that there was a real nice publication put out 

 by the state of Idaho which says it is upwards of 99 



Mr. LaRocco. Well what do you think? 



Mr. Lovelin [continuing]. Percent. 



Mr. LaRocco. What do your biologists tell you? 



Mr, Lovelin. Well, I am not going to be able to give you cer- 

 tainly an exact number. 



Mr. LaRocco. But you have biologists that work for the Colvmi- 

 bia River AUiance, do you not? 



Mr. Lovelin. We consult with biologists both with PNUCC and 

 the agency biologists. The thing that — — 



Mr. LaRocco. Okay, well what do they tell you? 



Mr. Lovelin [continuing]. Let me make a point, if I can, and I 

 will answer it this way, 



Mr. LaRocco. Sure. 



Mr. Lovelin. Almost 80 percent of the salmon are taken out of 

 the system. The ones that we are talking about now, the Snake 

 River chinook, are taken out of the system and transported around 

 the dams, and they are transported around the dams healthy. They 

 are released; there is a latent mortality there. There is some con- 

 jecture of what is that latent mortahty, but I would say relative to 

 that number, it is Idnd of odd when we hear 99 percent or 90 per- 

 cent of the fish are killed by the dams when the simple fact of it 

 is 80 percent or more are taken out and they are moved around the 

 dams via the transportation program. So you Imow, I am not going 

 to come up with an exact number. 



Mr. LaRocco. I am not looking for an exact number. 



Mr. Lovelin. All I am going to tell you is that the 90 percent 

 plus nimiber is incorrect. 



Mr. LaRocco. Well, how do you know that then, what number 

 do you use? 



Mr. Lovelin. From the simple fact, sir, that the transportation 

 program, the way it is operated today, does remove the fish out of 

 the river, barges them aroimd the system healthy. 



Mr. LaRocco. Do you use 60 percent? 



Mr. Lovelin. I do not use a number. 



Mr. LaRocco. Are you concerned about juvenile mortahty 



Mr. Lovelin. Yes. 



Mr. LaRocco [continuing]. Through the dams. 



And do you have biologists who are looking at that? 



